The Taser. Lazy mans handcuffs?

Case in point, I think we are generally on the same page just about a millimeter apart. The officer was legally able to do what he did, but he should have chosen a better path then what he took to handle the situation. That said, Massey could have also handled the situation differently, but the officer should have communicated better.

If not I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

There have been rare cases where people have died from mace/pepper spray being deployed also.

Other than traffic hitting them, it is very rare that a taser causes death, the line of path of the electricity won't even effect a pacemaker.

 

Lessons learned

If a cop points a taser at you, don't put your hand in your pocket and walk away.

If a cop gives you a bullsh*t ticket. Sign it and THEN tell him to go f*ck himself.

If you are a cop and you want to arrest a man for being a smarta*s, Don't pull your taser and freak out on him. Just get your cuffs and arrest him. Otherwise, you might end up on youtube.

Also; Tasers f*cking hurt.

 

I guess I agree with most of this.

 

Your math skills are not real good.

 

2,500 divided by 45 million equals, 5.5, or 5.5%. What is the problem?

 

Did you carry the 1?

I hope all of you conformist authoritarians get tased by a d*ckheaded cop on your way to the unemployment office Monday.

 

The first thing to remember is this guy was breaking the law by speeding, he started the ball rolling with his criminal actions.

He made the ball roll faster by refusing to sign the ticket, ignorance of the law is not an excuse, it is each person's responsibility to know the laws and if he did not know he was being arrested for refusal to sign, that is the criminal's fault, not the officer's responsibility to educate him.

The first thing I noticed was your constant use of the term "pig" when talking about a guy who's job can lead to his death in a moment's notice.

Many standard traffic stops end with cops laying dead on the ground so every officer must keep that in their mind for every stop they perform while the unruly and disrespectful motorists they stop never have to carry that burdon in their every day life.


Your disrespectful method of describing a person who puts his life on the line every day is disturbing.

I am a certified defensive tactics instructor for the State of Florida and that includes ERDs (Electronic Restraint Devices) and you are completely wrong.

Handcuffs are never drawn before the subject is ready for cuffing. Handcuffs impair the officers ability to use his hands for other things, including defending himself if the subject decided to resist at the last second. Many officers have been "fish hooked" by the loose end of handcuffs by not being sure the subject was secured before starting to apply them.


ERDs are becomming popular in law enforcement because it gives another non-lethal option to the officers to get compliance.


ERDs are very safe to use and have no lingering effects like those from direct physical attempts to gain control over a subject.




I have watched this video several times and even though the officer never mentioned he was arresting the subject, I believe most reasonable people would know that was comming and the guy should not have been surprised when asked to turn around and put his hands behind him.

The drawing of his ERD "after" the subject refused to comply was a reasonable escalation past verbal command refusal. The subject backed up and displayed characteristics of someone wanting to get away, not comply.


The resulting ERD use was both legal and justified and without an ERD to use, an officer in that possition must resort to physical contect methods of control that can result in real harm comming to both the subject and the officer not to mention how vulnerable the officer becomes at that point if a passenger decides to come to the aid of the criminal in question.




By the way, in order to be certified to teach ERD use I had to be subjected to them many, many times myself. I even "rode the belt" several times (an item similar to a weight lifting belt with probes on it that gives a full 8 second cycle when activated and no way to take it off).

Very painful, but with all that pain, there is no serious adverse effects, a great tool for law enforcement.

 

I agree with you completely and this is similar to the point I have been trying to say all throughout this thread.

I will only add that even though this officer was justified in what he did, he could have used better communication to avoid this outcome.

 

I respect police officers. I know many of them and have BBQ's and beers with police every summer at my brothers house.

I do not respect pigs and I dislike referring to them as "officer" much the same way I dislike referring to "Doctors" as such when they rape their patients.

This is a bulls*it line, TJ. Just watch the video and tell me if he saw Massey as a threat?

Go on, watch it. Then explain to me why he turns his back on a man that he's about to pull a dangerous weapon on. This is bad police procedure. To turn your back like he did for several seconds after he gets Massey out of the vehicle. He wasn't viewing Massey as a threat. He was angry and intent on teaching him a lesson.

You're blind protection of overzealous and angry police is what's disturbing. I have respect for police. I have no respect for bad cops. Especially when they tell lies and punish people with violence over a very simple traffic stop.

What you're trying to say goes against what the Utah Highway Patrol has set as guidelines for taser use. He drew his weapon BEFORE giving Mr Massey a chance to comply with an order that had not yet been given. He didn't tell Massey that was being placed under arrest when he asked him to get out of the car. He told him to "Hop out of the vehicle", turned his back on Massey and walked several feet away to his patrol car. Set his clipboard down on the hood of his car and stood behind Massey's back and pulled his taser while shouting "Put your hands behind you back". This is not proper procedure, Timesjoke.

If you have no reason to use your taser, you have no reason to pull your taser. These things are not toys and hundreds of people are injured from their use annually. Some even die. According to the Utah Highway Patrols spokesman Cameron Roden, there are only three circumstances in which an officer may use his taser;


Salt Lake Tribune - UHP on defense in Taser incident

None of these three situations apply to Massey.

And did you suffer a serious injury when you fell on the hard pavement? Ohhhhh...........thats right. You did this on a padded surface, knew it was coming and you had two people spotting you. The #1 cause of serious injury during the application of the taser is from the fall, not the taser.

He was justified in using the taser, but not in drawing it out in the first place.

If there is no reason to use a taser. Than there is no reason to draw your taser.


Officer Gardner (AKA piglet) most certainly should have at least informed Mr Massey of his intention to arrest, thusly affording Massey a chance to avoid an unnecessary arrest.

In case there is any confusion about this application of arrest during a simple traffic violation; From the same interview with UHP spokesman Roden;

Given the circumstances Gardner could have simply informed him of what his decision would be. I doubt, given his background, that Massey would have chosen the arrest option.

If you want to defend officer Gardner, TJ, than defend what he lied to his supervisor.


HERE is the lie, as pointed out by ABC news;
ABC News: Utah Cop's Itchy Taser Finger Probed

He claims to have asked twice for the man to submit to arrest before pulling his taser. This is a lie. One which I doubt will fly under the radar of the external investigators that are looking into this matter.

There is nothing illegal or wrong about asking an officer questions about a stop. No, it is not the place to hold court but that is not what Massey was doing. He was asking questions that were pertinent to the case. He was also pointing out Gardner's use of a speed trap tactic that I find quite dubious.
Gardner only pulled his taser for one reason. Because Massey was asking too many questions and he didn't want to take a minute and answer them... Well guess what, if you set a speed trap and take peoples time by stopping them, you're gonna get asked some questions.

Gardner pulled his taser out of anger. This is against police policy.

 

You know nothing about this officer but lable him as bad just because things happened you don't like. Pure disrespect for those that keep you safe.

Then why give the verbal order to tun and put his hands behind him?

That is what completely destroys your assumption, obviously the officer was arresting the subject, he clearly told the subject to turn around, the subject refused to comply and the officer needed to escalate based on the refusal to comply.

First, the driver had to break the law to get stopped. Second, the driver got angry and refused to sign the ticket, third the driver refused a lawful order from the officer to turn and put his hands behind him, that makes three strikes, your out and all the fault of the driver, not the officer.

You needing to demonise the officer and call him names is a sign of your disrespect in general for cops and what they do for society.

The officer gave the command before he drew the taser.

There are no deaths directly caused by tasers first of all.

Second, look at this part of what you posted:
In cases where the physical use of force would endanger the person or someone else.[/quote]

ERD's are popular because all forms of physical force have a greater chance of harm comming to both the subject and the officer so this covers all situations where force is needed to gain compliance to a lawful order.

In a way, they all do, everyone can be a possible threat to the officer or society at any time, all other forms of physical force have greater chance of harm, and the officer already attempted non-physical methods by giving his instruction that was ignored.

Some of my training was on padded mats but I took many applications in real life action with acted out traffic stopps, street stopps, jail extractions, etc.....

I know exactly what it feels like to have an ERD used on me in every possible situation, I even took a hit in the groin from a friend who thought it was a good joke to pull on me (he changed his mind when I popped a can of pepper mace in the bathroom on him and locked him in).

Wrong, drawing his taser is a reasonable escalation after the subjest refuses to comply with a lwaful order, remember, I teach this stuff.

While he "could" have attempted to educate the man about the law, it is not his responsibility to do so.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Again, it is not the officer's responsibility to educat the person on the law, if he did I would have no problem with that but there is no rule saying the officer "must" first act as the subject's lawyer then be a police officer.

He is human and a traffic stop can lead to his death so there is a lot of stress an officer must deal with at the time of a stop, something you have no clue about.

The main facts are that the man was stopped for traffic violations, the man escaled the situation by refusing to sign the ticket, and further added fuel to the flames of the incident by refusing the lawful order to turn and put his hands behind him.

This is all his fault, not the cops.

There is something worng if you are refusing to comply with commands by the officer at the same time. You must first comply, debating the merits of the case is something that happens in courts, not the side of the road.

Nope, the video clearly shows him drawing the taser "after" the failure to follow the order to turn and put his hands behind his back, no anger there.

 

I have no idea how you can say this. Massey exited his vehicle upon request and followed Gardner to his patrol car. He stood there and began motioning toward the sign in question. With his back turned, the officer started to draw his taser, asked him to put his hands behind his back. Massey turned toward him in confusion, not knowing he was being arrested and was rightfully shocked (excuse the pun). Then Gardner starts screaming at him with a dangerous weapon pointed at him. Massey didn't have a split second to comply before being shown violent force. That is not within the policies stipulated by the 9 page taser manual issued to the UHP.

Again, I am not arguing what happened AFTER he pulled the taser. I am arguing about what happened to cause him to pull it out.

You have to give a non-combatant traffic violator more than .002 seconds to understand that he's being arrested. He wasn't told before hand that he was getting out of his vehicle to be placed under arrest. In that case it would be different.

My point stands. If Gardner viewed Massey as a combatant threat, he would most certainly not have turned his back and walked for 15 feet with his back turned to the suspect. This was a sort of Freudian slip. Indicating that he didn't view Massey as threatening. Rather, he was just angry and wanted to show Massey who the boss is on this particular stretch of highway.

I view him as a pig. A pig will abuse his state granted authority and act in anger to questioning. Some cops can take it. Some cannot. Pigs cannot.

Don't get all preachy with that holier than thou bullsh*t. ITS A TRAFFIC STOP! For a minor speeding infraction. This was not a hazardous driving incident.

He wasn't shouting. He said quite calmly, "I'm not signing anything". Had Gardner simply said, "Sign it or I will CHOOSE to arrest you", than this whole thing never gets aired on youtube.

Or Gardner could have just knocked off the bull and let him go without signing it. The signature means NOTHING in court. NOTHING!

He didn't have time to refuse before getting violent force aimed at him. As citizens we should be alarmed when police circumvent policy and insert their own sequence of arrest procedure. YES, Massey should have given up the resistance when he realized that this jerkoff was actually arresting him at gun point. But that doesn't excuse the act of pulling the taser out in the first place. Tasers are dangerous weapons that have unpredictable side effects. From the fall that follows.

A taser will not normally kill by itself from the 50,000 volt shock. Usually there are contributing factors such as acute cocaine toxicity or a phenomenon known as Excitement Delirium. Which occurs when a person is whipped into a frenzy, their heart rate becomes dangerously high and actually resembles cocaine toxicity. Add the taser and its a death sentence. I support tasers being used by police. But they need to be judicious in the tasers application.

I've watched that video a few dozen times. And every time I watch it I see Gardner pulling it AS he's giving the command. How can you dispute this?

I understand all that. But there was no danger to anyone UNTIL Gardner pulled his sidearm. This man showed no sign of needing to be restrained. I posted it for you, TJ. The UHP's three prong "justifiable taser usage" policy. Yes, once the taser was out and Massey turned, placed his hand in his pocket and walked to his truck, he was 100% justified in using the taser. The dispute on my part is why did he use force to arrest a man that did not need restrained? If he had said "put your hands behind your back" BEFORE he pulls his taser, than I agree with you. But Gardner did not. The first signification that Massey was given that he was being arrested was starring down what he thought was a gun barrel.

He gave Massey approximately .002 seconds to comply. Prove to me that anywhere before he pulls his taser, that he gave an arrest command.

We are gonna have to agree to disagree on this point. Massey was given no reasonable chance to comply before being shown excessive force. My brother is a 6-7 year veteran police officer in one of Indianapolis' worst neighborhoods, the Fountain Square district. His opinion matches mine. That Gardner was too quick on the draw. Pulling that taser could have gotten Gardner shot if Massey was a bad person.

"Could"? You mean "should". He "should" have informed Massey that he would choose to arrest him in this circumstance. Arrest is not a default procedure in this circumstance. Therefor I feel police have a duty to inform people of their intentions if the police are going to choose to arrest a man for refusing to write on a piece of paper, the act itself being utterly meaningless.

This is not a question of acting as a roadside attorney. This is about maintaining a civil atmosphere with a less than hospitable driver. The best way to maintain a civil relationship was to circumvent the unpleasantness of an arrest over such a petty offense. It is the mandated duty of a police officer to remain calm and not allow his emotions to guide his actions.

I have witnessed countless dozens of traffic stops. Right there with the police. I have rode with the police approximately 40 times in the last 7 years. I have seen my brother and his co-workers get screamed and cursed at, and remain calm and civil, diffusing the situation entirely. I have seen the handcuffs come out so many times I cannot count.

Since you point out the danger of a traffic stop, and rightfully so, I will again point out yet another egregious error by officer Gardner. Turning his back on a subject that he is about to arrest. My brother and his co-workers NEVER do this. Not to anyone, at any time will they turn their back on the subject of a traffic stop. It is dangerous. That is why an officer should do everything in his playbook to keep the situation calm. Such as; Informing Massey of his intent to arrest. This would have done it but he chose not to. Because he was embroiled in a stand off of machismo.

 

You know I watch that over and over and it gets funnier everytime. What a dumb ****! What would make you walk away from a cop pointing something at you? WTF was he thinking? Yes the cop was over zealous for sure. It was not warented and he should be reprimanded. But the driver was a total idiot.

 

I mean my hands would be up so fast it would make your head spin!

"Oh **** Officer! Anything, anything, I'll do anything just don't shoot!"

 

"don't tase me Bro! Don't tase me!"

LMAO!

 

Hahahahaha... as long as it's not you, a tasering does make for good comedy.


I haven't watched the vid or anything but I gotta agree Snaf, you listen to a cop.

 

Re: The Teaser. Lazy mans handcuffs?

OK I'm sorry but this teasing was funny. You have to laugh at stupidity. Comon sense tells you the man was dealing with a cop on the edge. The cop dose the weaver stance pointing a taser at you for god sakes! You do what your told!

 

Re: The Teaser. Lazy mans handcuffs?

Hahahahahaha.. Weaver. I liked Columbo myself, never had to fire a shot.


Those are the cops you really want to listen to! I cease to be a rebel if an overzealous cop points his finger at me. Hahahaha

 

If the trooper thought Massey was a threat when he exited the vehicle he would have used force or threat of force at that point. It wasn't until Massey refused the first command to get in a cuffing posture that he pulled his taser out. (watch the video again)

Also the reason for the entire situation.

He was trying to tell the officer what to do. He said he wouldn't sign the ticket, then said, "First of all if you're giving me a ticket, you're gonna tell me why." The officer said for speeding and Massey cut him off, raising his voice over ther officer's saying, "And Second you are going to show me where this sign is." He is already being verbally non-compliant. The officer then told him he needed to sign the ticket first, and Massey again refused.

Had Massey simply signed the ticket and plead his case to a judge in court as it should be done, it never gets aired on youtube.

Watch it again. He made the command, Massey didn't comply. There was a full 10 seconds of repeated commands before the taser (i.e. the force) was used. Until that time it was only a threat of force.

Key words TASER USAGE. Until the officer pulled the trigger the taser (i.e. force) wasn't used.

He didn't. He USED the threat of force on someone who was passively non-compliant and had to escalate to the USE of force on someone who became physically resistant by walking away, and the force still wasn't USED until Massey made a furtive movement by reaching in his pocket.

Bullsh1t, he thought it was a gun. What made it look like a gun barrel? The 2" by 2" flouresent green square?
TASER

And if he truly thought it was a gun, he would have been a compliant MF, and a complete idiot if he wasn't.

I think so.

 

And you think this is an appropriate response to be forced into over a traffic violation? People shouldn't have to "Oh my god don't shoot me officer" over a traffic ticket.

I will not defend Massey for his lack of understanding that once a cop pulls a weapon on you, he will use it if you don't submit like a good little puppy.

Citizens have a right to question police that stop them, the same that a cop has the right to question them. As long as the citizen does not impede the investigation. Refusing to sign does not impede the investigation. As explained by the UHP's spokesman Cameron Roden, an officer may write 'refuses to sign' on the ticket and send the driver on his way.