The Middle Class Dilemma

I don't think it's a resentment of people that are less fortunate at all. I think it's more a resentment of the liberal idealogy that people are owed success regardless of their efforts. I resent someone saying that I owe something to people who have refused to work as hard as I, sacrifice as I've sacrificed or taken the risks that I have taken. I resent the idea that my earnings or the lifestyle I lead should be limited by someone who has no idea how hard I've worked to achieve what I've achieved. I resent people who preach that opportunity doesn't exist for eveyone one of us. I resent people who claim opportunity exists only for the rich, connected or fortunate. I resent people who propagate the myth that one doesn't create their own luck. I resent those who subsidize failure for political expediency. I resent those who wake up one day & realize they aren't where they want to be in life & feel like it's the responsiblity for the rest of society to prop them up.

 

Some of the hardest working people I know don't make near the money I make.

Last night, I got asked to go into work. 2 hours minimum, time and half. It took me maybe 20 minutes to do the job and I sat on my arse talking to the nurses while doing it. There are people who hump their butts for 8 hours to make what I made in that 20 minutes. Sure I have the job skills to do what I did and they don't but what I did really had nothing to do with 'hard work'.

 

Excellent post...couldn't agree more with you!

As for "hard" work...again, I don't care if you are busting your back (which I did as a teamster) or busting your brain. However you make your money is all based on a number of things like skill, brains, talents and of course, market demand and supply.

I just knew that as I was working on a truck making deliveries (as I worked through college) that someday I will not have to break my back in the future...but guess what? I now work longer hours (my choice) than I did on the truck, but at least I am not busting my back....even though as a teamster it was physically "harder work". Do I feel guilty for not doing this physically demanding work anymore? Absolutely not! No one should. I don't.

 

Your last sentence is the exact contradiction I was referring to. You worked hard previously to get to the position you are in now...are the "job skills" you possess the result of being born lucky as liberals would want us to believe or did you choose to learn those skills for yourself? Would it be fair for one of those folks at work, who chose not to develop the same set of skills, to limit your ability to earn 2 hours of time & a half pay? Would it be justified for them to sit around & moan because you have the ability & drive to learn a skill, use that skill & out earn them?

 

I find this funny and revealing at the same time:

You start out telling us that you don't resent people but rather some "liberal ideology" as you choose to define it and then state again and again the people you resent. This is like saying, "I don't litter but I throw paper cups on the ground, and tin cans on the ground, and candy wrappers, and soda bottles...."
You own words betray you.

 

Actually, I was assigned the job 20 years ago and ended up having a knack...an innate skill...for it. I can fix stuff. Durn near anythin'.

It came easy to me. Never struggled at it in the school they sent me to. I saw other guys try a lot harder to get through the school and not make it. They worked hard but didn't get the job. They got sent to be security forces or food service workers or whatever. For me, it was just obvious stuff.

The reality is in life that hard work doesn't always cut it. And even if it did, not everyone in any society can rise to the top. There are other, 'dirtier' jobs that have to be done. And there is always an unemployment rate. And not everyone that finds themselves in either of those positions were lazy or didn't work hard or even made bad decisions.

85% of the households in this country don't make six figures. And, unless you are an elitist, out of touch person, there is no way that I can believe that they all didn't make it to six figures just because they didn't work hard.

Hell, a third of the households make less than $30K a year. And I have a hard time believing that the majority of them didn't (or don't) work hard. Now, it is fine to be honest and say you don't give a crap about them. But, to rationalize it that all these people were just too lazy, stupid or whatever to make it to where you (or even I) made it is just...well it's either just obvious rationalization or maybe delusional.

 

I dont think one has to sacrifice as much as another or risk as much as someone else risks in order to be equal to another person. I also dont think sloth is solely a liberal way of thinking. No thinking person actually believes you can get ahead in the U.S. without working at it. We all know there are lazy people in this country, but are they really crying, ''I want what he has!''? Maybe there are. I dont know any lower middle class or poor people, so I dont know what they think or hope. I'm sure they work hard. And maybe they even sacrificed alot. Or what they think is alot. I dont think they deserve someone's resentment just because of thier lot in life. But yea, if they are whining about thier situation, its up to them to change it. But its a bit pompous to think that all liberals blame someone else's sucess for thier own shortcomings.

 

Oh, c'mon now, you can read better than that. You know the point I was making & the fact that you had to post a response like this only serves to further prove my point.

 

You have missed my point entirely.
Let me slow down a bit...
One's income doesn't really say anything about a person, their job doesn't really say much about that person. I know people that work away at $30k/yr jobs because that is exactly what they want to do & I say good for them.
I take issue with people who want to take from you & me because we have been successful & they use all of this other garbage as a crutch. Or the people like tomc (RIP) who believe they should be able to limit what you earn, how you live or the choices you make.

 

Maybe we're all just missing your points because you are so bad at making them. Speed, certainly isn't the problem. Try going for clarity for a change.

 

Well, some of your points seem to keep changing.

My point has been that some people are going to have to make no more than $30K a year. Whether they are happy with it or not. Whether they work hard or not. Fact is we won't be paying people $100K a year to wash our dishes, check us out at the store or a multitude of other things. Whether one cares or not is irrelevant.

And I say those things because the common points that I see and read are that these people don't make the big bucks because they don't work hard, are lazy, made poor decisions in life. Yadda, yadda. And that isn't always true.

And, another point is that one can look down on those people all one wants to and say 'tough' to them all they want to but it is still in the best interests of our economy to help people advance as far as they can up the ladder.

I think one does that best through education and skills training but that is just me. It doesn't advance an economy very well when the majority of your workers have a high school education at best and few job skills. Not in this day and age anyway for an advanced society.

Do we need to tax the hell out of everyone to do it? Probably not considering what current money is already wasted. Look at the money we are spending every day on wars and keeping troops all over the world. Not to mention the pork and bribes that are an every day part of our legislative process. And the over-complicated tax system that gives breaks to the people and industries that are the favorites of the current party. That is all a shell game meant to keep people in the dark about who is really paying what. But, that is all covered in other threads.

 

As I stated before, I real believe the "middle class" is a state of mind.

Think about it...it's a quick and easy way of saying "I'm not rich, but I guess (that state of mind - again) I am doing OK", which could be true of someone earning $20,000 a year or $200,000 a year living in New York City with all of their taxes.

The main stream media like NBC, CNN, CBS and others throw out statistics about the middle class because they think it is interesting to know how many Americans again feel like they are doing OK or not, at any given time.

I guess that if the middle class is shrinking, then the number of Americans who are struggling to get by must be growing...that's a sign that something is wrong...and with that, maybe government policies are to blame. Think about it...without this kind of information, B.O. and his cronies are better able to convince us that everything is going to get better...if they can just print more money and borrow more from our grandchildren. They are the people that love to engage class warfare. It is tantamount to their politics.

Another wonderful possible scenario would be that the middle class stays the same size, poverty is shrinking, and formerly middle class people are getting a lot "richer", so that the "upper class" is growing. That wouldn't bother me as long as there is no government interference or more taxes in the economy, and companies aren't being subsidized by the government with ridiculous bailouts.

But unfortunately, I think a lot of liberals will ALWAYS complain about there being so many more rich people, regardless of how they got their wealth. I just don't understand liberal's hostility toward "rich" and successful people and I don't understand why people like Moen want to punish the "upper class" by raising their taxes...again.

Maybe if people just minded their own business and lived their own lives as best they could, if everyone felt like there was nothing standing between them and a good life, there would be no class resentment.

But that is why we have socialists like B.O. in office want to make the goverment YOURS and MY business. No one or no group has any special claim to "social justice" or government assistance or even sympathy by virtue of being part of any group. Today's government is almost as bad as a "gang" from the hood, in other words, forcing everyone else to give them stuff.

The rights of the individual should be protected above all. On the flip side on a social level, no one should feel compelled or encouraged to think a certain way or act a certain way because that is how the group or "class" they "belong to" is supposed to think and act.

Americans should all be equal before the law regardless of gender, race and whatever else, and IMO every person should think for himself and stop basing his identity on being a member of a hypenated-group or CLASS.

 

Exactly my point, now you're getting it!
"Education & skills training" take what? Say it with me...Hard work? Sacrifice? Responsibility? At least if you expect to get anything out of it.
Earlier when I referred to hard work and sacrifice as a way to achieve higher, I didn't necessarily mean one's hard work & sacrifice efforts today. I meant hard work, sacrifice & responsibility every step of the way (I thought you guys could've figured that out- sorry for not being more clear). A guy can work his tail off today but if the decisions he made 20 years ago have gotten him in the position he is in now what can you do?

 

Your mistake is believing that everyone has the same access to educational opportunities as everyone else. You couldn't be more delusional on this point.

 

I had access to acceptable educational opportunities and believe me, coming from where I came from, if I had access anyone has access.

 

Riiiiiight! Because "YOU" had access "anyone has access". You can believe me as an educator, you know nothing.

 

I know enough to tell you that as a poor kid, from a poor family, I was able to put myself through 4 years of college without a penny from my family or a penny of student loan debt- I paid my tuition, housing, books, food, etc by working 2 sometimes 3 jobs. I started my own business while in school & sold it for a nice profit. I graduated a semester early, made good grades & had a fanatastic job lined up before I graduated. My wife also put herself through school without taking on any debt or having her parents foot the bill- she's a schoolteacher. Now, I have presented you with 2 real world examples of people who chose to do it the old-fashioned way, through preserverance, hard work & self-reliance. Still think it can't be done?

 

Are you really too dull-witted to know that you speak from a position of privilege? Let’s see, you're white, male, heterosexual, probably protestant, not first generation immigrant, didn't grow up in an inner city ghetto, and you think everyone else has equal access to better themselves because your family couldn’t afford to pay for your education? No wonder you are a Republican.

I was one of 9 kids and the only one able to pull himself out of the working class hand-to-mouth daily living existence I was born into. What I had going for me was that I was a white male heterosexual that the opportunities are tailor made for in this country. I recognize that but I do not beat myself down for availing myself of the opportunities open to me but neither do I look down on others for not doing the same as you do. I can certainly look beyond my situation with open eyes to see that others do not have my advantages. You apparently are too smug and self-involved to bother noticing anything beyond your own situation. You’ll have to forgive me for not lending your attacks much credence since they arise from such utter blindness in the first place.

 

Soooo.....only white, heterosexual, protestant, males who aren't first-generation Americans are the only people who can make something of themselves through hard work? I really don't think the school I attended cared what race or religion I happened to be as long as my money was green. Same thing for the bookstore, the cafeteria, the landlady or the employers who I performed menial labor for. I can assure you, I was surrounded my many people who weren't WASP-ish by any definition and those that worked harder accomplished more.
I realize, considering your role in "higher education", you are vested in propagating the fallacy that one cannot determine one's own destiny but you really should venture outside the vacuum of the college campus once in a while. You gain a prespective on how the real world operates.
It reminds me of something a professor once told me about the difference between teaching & actually doing. He said;
The academic knows better about the rubber & knows better about the road but it's at the point that the two meet that the academic is lost.

One can study how things are "supposed" to work all they want but without knowing how things "really" work the knowledge isn't very helpful.

 

What is this logical fallacy again? Oh yeah! It is misstating my position and then going on as if it were true. I never said “only”, I said it is an advantage to have this socioeconomic status that other don’t share. What you have said here amounts to changing the subject in the middle of the conversation. Not uncommon for these threads but it certainly aids people when all they wish to do is talk past each other.