The Fog of War or Unqualified GIs?

Good post Bone. I was watching Munich on DVD today and I realized that it is the type of war film that is more applicable to the situation we are in than any of those more traditional war flicks. The problem with the Middle East is that it is just one revenge killing after another. I doubt any two people are even fighting for the same reason anymore. And over what? Some crappy piece of desert that God supposedly blessed. If anything, he damned it.
We are being drawn into a conflict that began long before we existed as a nation and will go on long after we are gone. They have children just so that they can grow up and fight for their parents stupid ideas. What kind of life is that? Someone needs to put an end to this cycle and start fresh. I wonder who is capable of doing that?

 

The evil of Islamo-fascism will continue for decades, so eveyone in the civilized world will eventually have to takes up sides. All the do-gooder hand-wringing and whining will not make the basic problem go away. The world will never be like it was, or what some people believe it was. We are engaged in WWIII.

We can't really lose this war, but politically-active Americans can ensure that we do not win it. There are a lot of Americans that need to decide which side they really want to win.

 

How many soldiers are over in Iraq, and how many of them are accused of committing rapes, etc? Sorry to burst everyone's bubbles here, but not everybody is "good" - which (unfortunately) includes soldiers. I absolutely agree that they *shouldn't* being doing such things, but some do. That's the way of the world, and I think that we ought to be focusing more attention to winning this ugly war before we worry so much about the *few* soldiers who have done things they shouldn't have.

My 2 cents.
~AJM

 

As everyone with two or more brain cells knows, you can't have a "War on terrorism". Terrorism isn't a country or a people or a group of people, it's an idea that can't be killed bombed or rounded up and shot. Ideas, no matter how insane can not be eradicated with bullets. You have to replace an idea with something else that desperate people with nothing to lose can envision as a viable alternative to their desperate acts.

All this talk of “kill them all” and “bomb this” and “nuke those animals” only reinforces terrorist’s belief that they are powerless and justifies their actions at least in their own minds. Changing peoples minds takes time and patience and isn't nearly as immediately gratifying or as pictorially displayable as photographs of dead Al Queda leaders that can be replaced far easier than they are killed. I think the real trenches of this war are between the ears and inside the hearts of the leaders on both sides.

I know that old soldiers and those that see themselves as akin to that mind set would rather have a conventional war to fight but you don't get to fight the war you want, you have to fight the war you have with the singular objective of a cessation of violence as the goal and a peace everyone can live with. Everything else is just posturing by scared individuals that are part of the problem and not the ultimate solution to a lasting peace.

 

Interestingly enough, Moen, you are now getting away from your own thread topic. I point this out merely as a good-natured observation.

~AJM

 

these guys do not want the war to end, they are making to much $$$$$

 

Like that will happen...

Wishful thinking, but ask yourself...seriously...do you REALLY think that islam is going to change their religion and denounce what is written in their terrorist hand book?

This is something that is NOT new as islam has been dealing with conversion, enslavement, taxing, and killing since their mad-man pedophile prophet founded this hateful religion. So this not a matter of one or two generations of misguided muslims, but these people have been a pain to the civilized world for well over a 1,000 years. We sent our Marines to Tripoli to deal with, who else? Islamic jihadists in the early 19th century. 100 years later, Pershing had to deal with, who else? muslim radicals in the Phillipines and 100 years later, we are STILL fighting these *******s!

(From a previous post)

I believe that the General "Black Jack" Pershing found another way to demonstrate the "Twist in the Wind" idea. Every one who may see this, please pass this on. Very effective, even if the ACLU would not approve.

John J. Pershing: Born September 13th, 1860 near Laclede, MS. Died July 15th, 1948 in Washington, D.C.

Education West Point.

1891 Professor of Military Science and Tactics University of Nebraska

1898 Serves in the Spanish-American War

1901 Promoted Captain

1906 Promoted Brigadier General

1909 Military Governor of Moro Province, Philippines

1916 Promoted Major General

1919 Promoted General of the Armies

1921 Appointed Chief of Staff

1924 Retired from active duty.

=================================================

One important thing to note beforehand is that Muslims detest pork because they believe pigs are filthy animals. Some of them simply refuse to eat it, while others won't even touch pigs at all, nor any of their by-products. To them, eating or touching a pig, its meat, its blood, etc., is to be instantly barred from paradise (and those 72 virgins) and doomed to hell.

Just before World War I, there were a number of terrorist attacks on the United States forces in the Philippines by; you guessed it, Muslim extremists. So General Pershing captured 50 terrorists and had them tied to posts execution style. He then had his men bring in two pigs and slaughter them in front of the now horrified terrorists.

The soldiers then soaked their bullets in the pigs blood, and proceeded to execute 49 of the terrorists by firing squad. The soldiers then dug a big hole, dumped in the terrorist's bodies and covered them in pig blood, entrails, etc. They let the 50th terrorist go. And for the next forty-two years, there was not a single Muslim extremist attack anywhere in the world.

 

If it is as insidious as your proclaim, what makes you think WE can doing anything about it?

 

Isn't there a story something like this in the Christian Bible? Towards the end...

B

 

I don't believe that the outcome of this conflict will be the War of Armageddon. Some do...

Just had to include.





and my personal favorite...

 

This was NOT official USSR policy, but the actions of individuals that were overlooked by their superiors because of what fascist Germany did to people of USSR. Consider at a minimum that 20 Millions of people in USSR were destroyed by the fascists invaders, that they raped, pillaged and destroyed everything in sight. If this happened in USA I believe Americans would feel same way USSR soldiers felt when they invaded fascist Germany in 1944-1945.

I have travelled in German Federal Republic, and I disagree with you that the local population think USA did right thing when they firebombed out civilian centres of population. They call USA bomber crews luftgangsters. Like USSR, USA did not have official policy of pillagery, but it happened with situation of wartime that USA military felt it necessary to kill even non combatants in Japan and Germany. But who are those to complain? They killed millions of British, Chinese, Phillipino, Malay, Norwegians, Danes, Dutch, Poles, Jugoslavs, Russians, Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Sorbians, Serbians, Greeks, etc and etc.

 

It's not a matter if we can, it's a matter of we MUST. We must defend and destroy this cancer within this religion. After all, cancers don't sit idle, they grow...and the cancer of jihad WILL destroy all muslims that follow this hateful faith.

Another thing, we didn't start this jihad. Shoot, we have been fighting these jihadists all the way back to the days when our Marines landed on the "shores of Tripoli". Government schools skip the fact that this is America's first battle with islam, but I surely will not!

Again, islamic animals started their jihad hundreds of years ago and have forced us into a situation that WE must finish it. It is like the Billy Joel song, "We didn't start the fire", but we will HAVE to put it (islam) down.

 

Have you recently invented an idea gun that WE can use to once and for all stop these terrorists? How do you propose to eradicate this ideology with so many of yesterday's methods?

 

Well, these islamic animals MUST be stopped, with EVERY means possible. For over 1,000 years, this religion has lived out their jihad and unfortunately, it will probably take another 1,000 years to eradicate their warped ideology.

Remember, the United States has only been dealing with muslim terrorists for a little over 200 years, so we are relatively a late comer to this world-wide jihad.

Make no mistake. Yesterday's, today's and tomorrow's methods are not going to eradicate this terrible religion overnight. There is roughly 1.2 billion world-wide muslims and millions within this number want all of infidels converted, enslaved, taxed and/or KILLED! Don't be a fool to think it is just an isolated few radicals. Think!



Islam is going to have to ask themselves if they wish to enter the 21st century...or will they move their followers and the rest of us infidels back to the middle ages...or they will force us infidels to do it for them?? The ball is squarely in their court.

My advice to them is they better "play that ball" very carefully...or else!

 

Two issues here.

I think the bombing of Dresden and other German cities late in the war was basically unmitigated war crime. The destruction of Dresden had no significant impact on the war. It was proposed by Winston Churchill and the English out of revenge. We should not have participated. We did. Dresden was the cultural and historic seat of Prussia. Until the late bombings, the homes of rich Prussian aristocrats had remained almost untouched.

Revenge killings were indeed part of Stalin's war policy. The killing of hundreds of thousands of civilians and military prisoners in Poland by the Soviet Union were clearly unpunished war crimes of the first magnitude. Stalin sent an entire army north towards Danzig and the baltic coast just to cut off and kill German civilians who were attempting to flee westward towards the Americans and British. Stalin could have ended the European war months earlier by moving straight west to Berlin. He stopped the westward advance to specifically to kill Prussians. Pure and simple.

It is my understanding that as an offical Army policy, Russian soldiers were allowed to loot 10 kilos of booty from each German town that they sacked. There was a pretty German woman who asked to speak to a Russian field commander in east Germany. She pulled out a pistol and emptied the gun into him. Before she was bayonetted to death by a cadre of Russian troops she was asked why she did it, and she explained that she had just been raped by about 30 of the General's men.

 

Whether or not it was official policy or not, the Americans under Patton and Eisenhower also prevented Germans from entering their lines until very late before the conflict ended. Similarly they sent the captured Russian soldiers fighting on the side of fascist Germany under General Vlasov back to USSR forces so that they could be sent to Siberia for slow death.

One thing which cannot be denied - - - before war of 1914-1918 civilian deaths in wars between nations were the exception rather than rule. Armies of nations did not go after civilians generally other than destruction of crops etc which benefited armies. Of course civilians were killed in most every conflict but they were usually accidental and not deliberate actions. Now civilian deaths such as in Iraq are part of the rule and not exception of rule.

Whole of the deliberate air bombing campaign was started by accidental fascist German bombing of London outside of docklands, then England under Churchill decided to bomb German civilians. Then war of cities began.

 

I don't want to be argumentative here, but this statement is just not true. WWI and perhaps a few other wars of the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries may have resulted in relatively fewer civilian deaths, but it has been "open-season" on civilians throughout history. For 5,000 years, civilians have been slaughtered as a means of removing potential political and military threats. "Ethnic cleansing" is clearly not a modern concept. Ask the Jews, Armenians, and the Roma. Europeans, Mongols, Arabs, Turks, Persians, Native Americans, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Cambosians, Koreans, and other ethnic and national groups have exterminated entire populations of major cities and countless smaller towns and villages. Even the attempted extermination of American Indians in the 18th and 19th centuries involved a relatively small number of local events. The numbers of Indian deaths pale in comparison to numbers associated with countless international wars and events.

 

I think if Spielberg’s Munich taught us anything, it was that killing for revenge, countries, ideologies, etc. is pointless and only escalates the violence everyone claims to be trying to stop. Maybe if we got at the root of the problem instead of the symptoms, we'd make some progress in halting the endless cycle of violence that has persisted for so long or we could just dismiss trying altogether and keep the ever hungry fires of the war machine burning. If the past is any indication, the latter will prevail.

This isn’t a problem of religious differences as much as it is problem of cultural differences. The Middle Eastern culture dominated by the Islamic faith has many inequities, corrupt governments, and few opportunities for the majority “have-nots” to live a decent life. Throw in foreign exploitation and interventions and an opportunistic radical/fanatical voice and even the average Joe/Mohammad can be radicalized for any purpose. Islam is just a tool to rally behind and persuade the masses that their cause is just in God’s eyes. Nothing could be further from the truth but in an Orwellian dynamic truth is scripted for the masses. Are the script writers accountable or do the duped masses bare responsibility for following a deeply flawed ideology?

Cultures have allowed themselves to be led by charismatic leaders over the proverbial cliff for as long as cultures have existed. We will never be able to wipe out Islam but we may be able to destroy the reasons that Islamic leaders feel it necessary to radicalize their populations into action against us if we plant the seeds of shared values and understanding above those of suspicion and hatred. If we are as great a people as we feel we are, we should be able to accomplish this goal and build a bridge to another culture that ends the violence once and for all.

 

Yeah, even some of the Jewish groups could not understand why Spielberg actually filmed a sympathic view to these animals.

Wait a minute, it is pretty clear that the root of the problem is a religion that makes it VERY CLEAR that infidels need to convert, be enslaved, be taxed and or be killed. It is all in the Koran and every islamic terrorist sites these passages as justification for their actions and ticket into 'paradise'.

...and those muslim cultures base their existance and law of the land from islam first and foremost. Look at the Eqyptians before islam got a hold of this culture. They had their act together with science,architecture, innovation, etc., then what happen?...the next thing most Egyptians are doing is distrupting productivity with all of this praying to the east crap and the country has gone backwards ever since.

Agree...since thesee people can't think for themselves, it is relatively EASY to lead the stupid...and brother, these people are just that!

A huge understatement...its a huge tool! These islamic people are easily manipulated and have no original thought, consequently they are following a 'deeply flawed ideology' which is unfortunately in the Koran.

Agree...to this day, I still can't believe that smart civilized people bought into Hitler and the Nazi party. Shoot, World War I ended in 1918 costing Germany billions of marks and more importantly, a generation of young men and what happens? 20 years later they are marching into Poland. Hitler, by your definition was one of the top 5 charismatic leaders in modern civilization and performed the ultimate "dupe" of a civilized people.

We will never be able to wipe out islam and it will take the action of the muslim people to clean up, police their own, and join the civilized world. The ball is in their court. They have to act responsibly and civilized. If they force us to defend ourselves, we have no other choice...we will do just that. As for planting seeds, I don't think there is enough pig manure to help these people grow, wake up and denounce the hateful passages of their Koran.

Come on Moen...not another "bridge to the 21st century (a la Bill Clinton)". Remember...we have built a number of "bridges". We have given them BILLIONS of dollars, we have tried to appease them. but these people keep on BLOWING up the freakin' bridge. After awhile, you say to yourself, "Screw this and screw them...so they want a jihad?, well jihad this mohammad!"

I can appreciate your patience Moen, but I ran out of patience years ago with these islamic jihadists.

 

Moen, this dude wants genocide therefore it is not possible to have civil discourse with him.