Socialism Doesnt Work

Saw someone in another thread say this...thought I would start a thread about this because I hear this a lot but I just think this blanket statement is completely false. In the end...it does work in many places. Would it work for the US? maybe not but then again here we are in this state and what got us there?

ALL modern western nations are just a mix of democracy, capitalism, and socialism. We have socialism in the US and have for some time...Most socialist nations have aspects of capitalism and democracy as well...

Case in point: I go to Norway on business quite often and they are quite socialist. Over a great meal of fresh seafood and wine I asked the people I was with about their government, most said they liked the system they live under.

I asked them how they feel about the fact that about half (if not more) of their pay checks go to taxes...they respond telling me it doesn't bother them...most people work and those who don't usually have a good reason why they don't. One guy (the head of our company branch there) told me he thought it was great that he could walk into any doctors office in the country, get good medical care...and walk out owing nothing. Contrary to what Mr. Hannity says on the radio, and people would have you believe (drug companies and medical establishment)...they do not have long waiting and lines...and from the few Canadians I have talked to...nor do they...and the few Canadians I have talked to say they have never been denied anything they have ever needed medically

They like their educational system (which is better than ours) which is free and their transportation system which is also free...the negatives were they didn't like 8 dollar beers and cigarettes at 10 bucks a pack (so they buy them on the black market).

Now Norway (and other Scandinavian nations) have some seriously large companies operating in their borders and their standard of living is high...Norway its oil, others its cell phone companies...they are big, worldwide companies that make huge profits...so their government has not run off capitalism. I visited people at their homes, went out for a sail on lovely boat (many have them there)...these people are not hurting to make a good living!!

From just those I spoke to (all working men and women)...they liked their government and how its run and it seems to work rather well.

IMO, different populations prefer different type of governments. I know a lot of people outside of the US HATE the US mentality where they say 'socialism doesn't work' or 'US is the greatest system in the world'...and then we look for all the world to fall in line.

I don't say the US is the greatest nation in the world...its the greatest nation IN MY OPINION...its the one I like the best....the place I come back to after travel...its home. But if other countries have other systems they like better...more power to them if it works. Contrary to what some say...socialism is alive and well and in some countries it works well...would it work in the US? I don't know but for sure the situation in the US is much different than in Norway...for one they rake in huge oil profits from the North Sea to help them along.

In the end its not if the US should be socialist...because we already have many socialist programs...its a question of how much...

 

Absolutely!

The problem is not Socialism. The problem is not Capitalism. The problem is not Islam. The problem is not Christianity. The problem is not Atheism. The problem is not Animal Rights. The problem is not Environmental Protection. And on and on.

The real problem is what it has always been in so many things. The problem is Extremism.

Too many people see things only in extremes. We either have to be all socialist or we have to be all capitalist. Government either provides everything or the government provides nothing. When the reality is a blend of both is probably best. Social programs as a safety net and Capitalism and Free Markets for a thriving economy and high standard of living.

Everyone does not have to have the same things and be at the same economic level. But, if things go bad, a family should not have to hit the streets and live under a bridge either.

 

Two very good posts now as someone who has lived under a very left wing Labour goverment and a very right wing Conservative goverment and seen both fail I can honestly say that there are good and bad things attached to both sides of the political spectrum. The trick of course is to find that happy medium in the middle, the Labour goverment we have at the moment has to a great extent managed to achive this but of course the world crisis we are in at the moment has put something of a dent into the programme LOL

 

I couldnt agree more about the problem of seeing things in black and white and extremes.

De Orc...what is your assessment of your medical system. I know that some time after WWII medical treatment became socialized...I travel to Britain and know some people there and most I have talked to are not disappointed with the medical treatment they receive...how do you assess it?

I hear horror stories about socialized medicine in your country...I also hear success stories....

With the horror stories, they mostly revolve around long waiting lines or being denied treatment. So people will point at these cases and say its a bad system. All the while they seem to be ignoring the horror stories regarding the US health care system.

How employees of insurance companies have admitted that they must attempt to deny payment for medical expenses whenever they can...how they get a bonus if they are able to deny more than the set quota that they are expected to deny. We pay all this money to an insurance company to take care of our medical expenses and their #1 goal is to deny us payment for medical services if all possible.

So what is so much better about OUR system!! I sit in a waiting room for hours, my insurance company recently denied me medicine to clear up acne that was forming around my eyes. They said I was too old to qualify. I get this acne because I ride a motorcycle and, as I was told by the doctor, its common to get this when you ride a lot in the sun and get particles lodged in your pores...the medicine was a cream and without insurance, it would have been 120 USD for one tube of it. I pay a lot for insurance and my insurance covers a lot of things but in the end...I just dont see that how we do it now in the US seems any better.

 

On a whole it is extreemly good the problems arise when the goverments of the day introduce more buracracy and less actual nusing staff. In some respects we have become a nation of paper pushers LOL the same issue arises with the police Ambulance and Fire sevices
Each goverment promises millions to fund the National health service and true to there word they do spend the money then they decide a reorganisation is required to cut costs so introduce another level of management or take a level away and introduce one to oversee the reduction of the previouse management system and so it goes on

 

Here is an interesting thread " on topic". The comments are from England, and are much more relevant than the actual story. Your thoughts Steve if you would.....are these in the minority?

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sho...he-would-have-met-President-Barack-Obama.html

 

I believe that you have a paper in the US called the National enquierer LOL well the News of the world is sort of our version of it and as for the comments!! This Country is not becoming Muslim LOL they are a very small minority (admitedly vocal) and strangley most of the comments I seen seemed to be from Americans!

 

There are some crazy responses to that article...glad to know America doesnt hold a patent on religious insanity:

You made the right decision Susan not having dinner with Obama. The book of Ezekiel talks of the devil who professed: I will set my throne above the stars of God and become like the Most High. Obama's dream is: I will shape Jerusalem the way I see fit above God's own divine plan for Jerusalem. The man is a demon standimg against God's word for Jerusalem, the city of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. His dream is doomed for God's judgment!!!

assuming this was a brit and not an american.

 

Oh believe me when I say we have our fair share of Kooks, you guy's dont quite hold the franchise on them LOL

 

Medicine

Who do you talk to when you talk about satisfaction with Socialzed medecine ?
If your young you tend to need less help with general health.
If you fall into a geriatric situation you will need more and more help as we are mortal.
What age group, or groups were selected for a quick survey?

Pep

 

Well over here they tend to talk to actual patients also if you are running a non biased survay you ask people from all age groups all levels of society all races and creeds But you DO NOT ASK POLITICIANS LOL

 

Long live the Queen

Resistance is futile you shall be assimilated !

 

Oh my !

Oh here is a good one from Obama the Socialist.
Something is wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/05/14/us/politics/politics-us-obama-china-debt.html?_r=2

 

And can you please tell us what is wrong with what he said? China does hold a rather large amount of your paper, you might not like that but it is the truth and you can not Blame Obama for that one either

 

No restraint

Yes !
He spends wildly with his congress and complains we are now in trouble !!
He has done immeasurable damage, and knows he is wrong.
Our bankruptcy laws would have taken care of all but the banks. Those are the foundation of any capitalistic motivated society.
" You can never be what you never were"
Pep

 

Do you honestly think that China has picked up all this paper in the past 4 months? they have been buying it up for years and I hate to have to point this out again Obama cant spend a cent without it been approved. Exactly what do you think the previouse administration had planned?
You were in trouble a long time before Obama took office in fact even before he ran for the Presidency just check the trade defficit with China and how long it has been going on.
Dont believe me want to check it for yourself, well here you go

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

You have never broken even with China since those records began in 1985, you have allways bought way more than they have and they save your dollars.

Now anyone fancy telling me that perhaps I am wrong or dont grasp the fundimentals of this? Perhaps American trade differs from all other trade in some secret way that I am unaware of? LOL
Why are you blaming Obama for telling you the truth?

And it is not only with China

Goods by Geographic Area (Not Seasonally Adjusted)
The goods deficit with Canada decreased from $1.9 billion in February to $0.8 billion in March. Exports increased $1.3 billion (primarily automobiles, parts, and accessories) to $16.8 billion, while imports increased $0.2 billion (primarily passenger cars and crude oil) to $17.6 billion.


The goods deficit with China increased from $14.2 billion in February to $15.6 billion in March. Exports increased $0.9 billion (primarily civilian aircraft, engines, equipment, and parts) to $5.6 billion, while imports increased $2.3 billion (primarily computers and accessories) to $21.2 billion.


The goods deficit with the European Union increased from $3.3 billion in February to $4.4 billion in March. Exports increased $1.1 billion (primarily civilian aircraft, engines, equipment, and parts) to $19.8 billion, while imports increased $2.2 billion (primarily pharmaceutical preparations and petroleum products) to $24.2 billion

 

What ?

You must realize that is now the watch of Barrak Obama.
He has made decisions with his like minded congress to have stimlus versus law.This usurps written law of bankruptcy. Changing the rules without connecting with We the people is a bit beyond what we signed up for.
Chicago is the most corrupt state we know of in America. Politcs have but one goal, ask Blago !
The Daley machine people are imbedded in the current top officials ,and advisors in Washinton. What else could be the outcome ?
Corruption has permeated ever area where money control exists.
This is America , the United Stated of America . We will prevail as states united. We declared Independence and have shown the world what a better life could be.

Pep
" You can never be who you never were"
Look at the big picture, minutiae confuses the best of minds and is a polital game.

 

Thats right it is his watch now, and these problems did not start now or do you perhaps think that they did? care to show me were in the constitution it states that the laws on bancruptcy are set in stone? or possibly in the Bill of rights? Care to show me were it says that a President and Congress can not impliment a stimulus package? after all this is not the 1st time it has been done, dont suppose you ever heard of the New Deal (just on a smaller scale) LOL want to show me which law he has broken or do you just want to go on throwing out accusations? I thought in America you believed in Innocent until Proven Guilty or is that law only applyed to anyone not called Obama?
You do all this talking about the Constitution the Bill of Rights yet you are happy to throw worthless accusations at the man who was ELECTED by the MAJORITY of your own fellow CITIZENS!!

"our entire economy is in danger," urged Congress to approve his administration's $700 billion bailout proposal.

"We're in the midst of a serious financial crisis, and the federal government is responding with decisive actions," Bush said in a televised address Wednesday night from the White House.

Bush pointed out that the collapse of several major lenders was rooted in the subprime mortgage market that thrived over the past decade.

He said passage of the $700 billion bailout proposal was needed to restore confidence in the market.

"I'm a strong believer in free enterprise, so my natural instinct is to oppose government intervention," he said. But "these are not normal circumstances. The market is not functioning properly. There has been a widespread loss of confidence.


Those are the words of President G W Bush not President Obama now I believe that the numbers are roughly the same under Obama. So were were you when President Bush was trying to push this through LOL What exactly do you think has changed the economy is still down the pan and getting worse

So far the treasury has pumped some 200 billion dollars into 580 banks would you rather they had been allowed to fail? The BIG mistake has been AIG they should have taken it over instead of allowing the inept managemetn to continue loosing money and paying themselfs big bonuses at the expense of the Tax payer.
They intend to use up to 75 billion to buy up so called toxic assets (some they will be able to resell)

So far 13 banks have returned 1.26 billion to the treasury, (Dont hear about that do you LOL) Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase & Co have said they are ready to repay 10 and 25 billion once the treasury give them the all clear (Bet you hadnt heard about that either LOL).

Of the 50 billion ear marked to reduce forclosuers they have allocated 15.07 in incentives to 14 institutions

$15 billion pledged to purchase securities backed by Small Business Administration loans

$30.61 billion has been allocated to prop up the U.S. auto industry
$5 billion in support for auto parts suppliers and a $5 billion investment in GMAC LLC

Show me which one breaks a law?

 

PS the AIG bailout began under President Bush last September, want to blame Obama for that as well LOL

 

Hey Pep,

I've been reading your exchanges with DeOrc for a few days now. Actually started to reply last night but the post was becoming a novel. I'll try and make this one a short story.

Rah, Rah USA! Go team go! Now that's out of my system. So when are you going to jump off your soapbox and actually address a point?

We're on Obama's watch now? Yes, I suppose we are but really what did you expect on day one of his term? He waves a magic wand and suddenly there is world peace and we no longer have a deficit? Can you name a President Republican or Democrat that has ever accomplished this?
I'm sure any President could accomplish that if the slate were wiped clean on day 1. Lookee NO deficit, NO wars - EVERYTHING is neutral and I just have to prove myself!

We've had good Presidents and bad Presidents. None have been perfect but your lame attacks on Obama are pathetic as is your socialist rhetoric.

Judging from other comments you've made you must be in your 70s? Are you willing to give up Social Security? How about Medicaire or any benefits from the military? You know "social" programs.

Then of course the tie in with Illinois and the likes of Blago. Yep, he's in cahoots with them all for sure. Chicago is the most corrupt state in the union and they border Illinois. Oh yeah, Chicago IS part of Illinois.

OK, I'm nitpicking there but gonna tell y'all something. If any of you believes for a minute that political corruption does not exist in 49 other states I'd like to meet you so I can call you an idiot to your face.

Here's the bottom line Pep. Politics is dirty and it doesn't matter which side you're on. This is known as realism.
Money IS the key and this is nothing new either. It's been happening since this country was founded and well before that.

We live in an ever changing world. An increasingly small world at that.
Things were great in the past but the past is just that. The recent past has not been that great and if we can't adapt we'll never come close to it again.