So, let's ALL discuss the other side of this issue . . .

People resist everywhere, we're not special. As for Tamir Rice, can you not tell a 12 year old from an adult? Also, let's pause here. Do you guys REALLY want to be on the side of the arguement that's rationalizing child murder?

 

He didn't touch the gun. He merely let the cop know he legally owned one. In several states, though not Minnesota, you are legally obligated to disclose this information to an officer during a stop. He was following the law to the letter when he was murdered.

 

Stop sensationalizing, it was not child murder. There was no pre-meditated intent to kill a child.

1. It was a defensive shooting
2. It was reactionary, and not planned
3. The victim was not necessarily known to be a minor in the heat of the moment . . . not that it should matter wen a gun is pointed at you.

 

You right. I'll correct it to "child homicide" from here on out. You're rationalizing child homicide is the correct way to put it.

 

No less a shame, but at least we can call it what it was . . . George Floyd's case was murder, and very different.

 

No, not at all. I cannot rationalize any murder in my mind...... I am going to go back about fifteen years for an old analogy. I took my young son and his buddy to eat one night. They were grade school age. At the restaurant, both kids were given a goofy paper hat which they wore on the ride home. We were three scary and intimidating guys, let me tell you..... I was pulled by an extremely young officer. I would surmise I was likely her first confrontation. She stood behind my door and in my mirror I could see she was shaking and had one hand on her holstered pistol....... I could have done one of two things. I could have acted out for being so confrontational with a seat full of paper hatted kids..... Or I could have smiled and very gently reached for the appropriate information, all the while speaking calmly and politely. I chose the latter. She was so wound up I was in fear of her response if I had been less than polite........ Look, we can only walk in our own shoes and we can only control our own actions. The officer you choose to confront may have been shot at an hour before. You don’t know what has happened in his day. It is always our obligation to treat them with respect. In this upside down world we live in, how can anyone rationalize otherwise?

 

They risk their lives most days that they step out their front doors . . . I daresay the closest most of us get to that is stepping out of our showers.

While there are definitely times I'd rather not run across them, police in general have my respect every day, every hour, every minute.

 

I appreciate the story and see your point of view.

So, here's the issue I keep coming to in my mind: regardless of cause, there are far more civilians killed by police in the U.S. than any other wealthy nation. How should we go about fixing this from a policy perspective? I keep coming back to limiting the abilities of officers to kill people because we can't legislate the individual actions of people in contact with police.

If the goal were to use legislation to mitigate the civilian deaths by police, how would you approach it?

 

I won't disagree that we do need to look at police policy. As an ingrained institution, perhaps this is the right time to look at what is the root cause of so many of these police killings from an institutional perspective.

However, I am a firm believer in a two way street. If we aren't going to expect parents to teach young people the value of being respectful to authority, then perhaps it needs to be taught in our schools. Heck, I learned to balance a checkbook, write a business letter and do basic keystroke in school. At the time all were a complete waste of time in my kids mind.... I always point the finger at myself before I point that finger at anyone else. If a young person doesn't understand that pointing a plastic handgun at a police officer may result in your death, then we are missing the mark here.

All roads go two directions. We can't say we value the life of an African American life or any life unless we also choose to educate him on personal responsibility at the same time.

 

You wrote, " . . . we can't legislate the individual actions of people in contact with police."

I think we CAN.

Make far more stiff the penalties for fleeing from the scene and resisting arrest. With more incentive for the general populace to do the right thing, the officers should feel less threatened in their positions.

 

As I stated at the very beginning of this thread, it boils down to one word..............choices. When anyone chooses to not listen to law enforcement officials, they are asking for more trouble then they're potentially already in. Today's world once again is putting all the blame on law enforcement and not casting any glimmer of accountability on the other side.

 

Alright, but the opposite is often true. See England/Wales:



Not only is it not against the law explicitly to resist arrest in England/Wales, it's not a crime to assault a police officer for unlawful arrest. Though you will be charged if the arrest was later determined to be lawful.

All this, and they still manage to kill civilians 1/67th as often as our officers do.

 

I'm simply saying lethal force is not the proper response to resistance. Sure, it's a bad choice, but that doesn't give the state the right to end their life. Police are supposed to bring people in to be tried for their crimes, not kill them.

 

Sidenote, where are you all on body cams? I think that could do a lot to prevent excessive use of force while allowing police to do their jobs.

We'd need them to be mandatory and carry strict punishment for turning them off. If they turn off 3 times during arrest, maybe there could be a mandatory suspension and class they'd have to take.

 

I know I wouldn't want mine recording while I'm taking a whizz or a dump.

 

Until you've been in a use of force situation, you don't have any idea how quickly and how badly things can escalate......and especially when you're talking non-compliance and resistance. Couple that with the mere sight or mention of a lethal weapon and you've compounded the situation tenfold.

The heart of the issue in most cases being discussed are exactly what I have underlined above. Had most of the people being discussed simply complied and not resisted, we would be here today discussing our favorite beers instead.

Do you not agree that what I've stated above is true?

 

I don't disagree.... But we are armchair quarterbacking what a law officer may perceive as a life and death situation. You are taking for granted just how easy it is to judge from the comfort of our overstuffed easy chair watching six different camera angles.

I believe body cams are a fine idea. But keep in mind that these days there are another dozen onlookers videotaping the same thing. The officers are fully aware that they are under everyone's scrutiny. And yes, mistakes are made. But again, it's mighty easy to critique from the comfort of our easy chair.

 

No, I don't need to read a study to know that. Unlike at the shooting range, criminals are almost always moving targets. Beyond that, and just as important is the fact that, when we are in a fight or flight situation, our adrenal glands fire like crazy, and our hearts are pumping so hard that a pistol is impossible to hold still in one hand.

 

I do not. This is due to 2 facts:

1. U.S. police kill civilians at a much higher rate than any other wealthy nation.

2. ~6% of people killed are unarmed. Closer to 30% if the victims were African American, but that's not what this thread is about.

I believe in a lot of cases, it's the police themselves that are escalating the situation (even if by just having or drawing their gun)

In fact, I believe they're escalating the situations for many of the same reasons you pointed out police are scared of civilians with weapons.

 

Okay, I feel like we're not getting anywhere. Here's the main issue I see and want addressed, as well as my interpretation of why it's happening.

1. 60-70 cops are killed by civilians in the U.S. on average annually.

2. Easily over 1000 civilians are killed by police in the U.S. on average annually.

It's not because police are that much better at shooting for the kill, they're shooting first, shooting more often, and escalating the level of force used.