In your opinion, does the existence of organized religion do more harm than good in the world or would the world be more violent and war-like without organized religion. I am not referring to religion on an individual basis but religion on a large group participation level. I am also not referring to any one organized religion but the whole spectrum of organized religion and the interactions that occur between them. In my opinion spirituality on an individual basis is fine. It just seems to me that when a religious movement gets large enough and starts pressing it's beliefs on society unabated, wars seem to follow. Why can't we just have belief systems that don't involve group-think and mass movements? What is the advantage of large group worship anyway?
I could care less who you pray to and worship. What I care about is when a religion's core belief is to convert, enslave, tax (punish) and/or FIGHT non-believers as evidenced by "true" muslims throughout the world who are responsible for over 95% of today's conflicts and wars from the Far East to Africa to the Middle East...well, to answer your question, a religion like islam is indeed harmful and MUST be dealt with. Remember...the word "islam" means to "submit and surrender yourself to their allah" and when you do that, you will obtain their version of peace. If you don't fall for this terrorist religion, then according to their koran and other islamic teachings and history, they will FIGHT you. Damn straight there is a harm in a religion like islam...always has, IS, and always will be until these people wish to join the civilized world.
Like I said in the original post, this isn't about one relgion, it is about the interplay between religions. I knew that you couldn't resist bad-mouthing Muslims because that is all you talk about. What other religions that dominate societies? Have you ever thought about them or are you too fixated on Islam? Or even a small sect like the branch dividians?
Until you can demonstrate to me a major religion that commands their followers to KILL (as per their koran) which is responsible for over 95% of today's world wars and conflicts in all corners of the earth...your dismissal of these "true" muslims as they hold the koran in one hand and a weapon in the other is indeed disturbing. But please continue...bring up your abortion doctor killer or Timothy McVeigh and TRY to balance all of the terror committed by the religion of islam over the last 1,400 years against the one or two individuals you can dig up. And another thing...just because you can locate a "branch" of idiots a la Waco, Texas...you have to remember that other "Christians" and "Jews" did not dismiss the actions of this "branch" and took them down. This is something you don't see in the muslim world, or very rarely indeed, because it is the DUTY of every muslim to conduct jihad. Hence the reason you see muslims turn their back on their own terrorist activity. But wait!! Draw an editorial cartoon on mohammad and they will take to the streets screaming for DEATH. Nice try...
Again, all you ever talk about. Broken record. Try and broaden your perspective a bit and answer the real question here or go create yet another Muslim-hating post of your own.
Figures...you just can't balance the act of a "Timothy McVeigh" against the history and current madness of islam, so what do you do? Back peddle...
Moen, it depends on how you want to define religion, because I can certainly list lots of examples of wars that had nothing to do with organized religion as you appear to define it. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the US Civil War, and the barbarian invasions of the Roman Empire, just to name a few. As it is, your own religion is showing. You have beliefs that you argue are definitive (that private spirituality is good, but organized public is not). I would argue that if you hold something to be definitive (and that defining power can be Yahweh, Allah, the almighty dollar, E=MC2, or secular morals), then what is good for you should be good for all. You couldn't name a group of people that believes in a common defining power (which is how I define religion) that believes that it is better to hold individual beliefs rather than group ones.
Moen,you are forgetting that Roman Catholicism is actually derived from both the ancient Roman religion,& the ancient Babylonian religion.Both of these,like Romanism is today,were based on idolatry. Roman Catholicism has done a lot of harm,especially in countries like Ireland,Northern Ireland,& New Zealand.New Zealand is a Protestant majority country,as is Northern Ireland.It really angers me when the Pope of Rome's minions come on T.V. & moan about a lot of things.When Channel 4 over here began to screen the cartoon series 'Popetown',they tried to get it banned.These bigots have also contributed to the poor race relations between Maoris & British New Zealanders.We had a Papist bigot who was Prime Minister of the Dominion from 1990 to 1997 named Jim Bolger.He was (& still is!) a Hell-bound supporter of Sinn Fein/I.R.A. who told a pack of lies when he was promoting his Mixed Member Proportional (M.M.P.) political system.He claimed that it would bring greater democracy & curb corruption,when it hasn't.Nearly half of the members of the New Zealand Parliament are appointed by the political parties themselves.The people can't vote out the idiots who've been around for far too long.The political parties have appointed far too many lowlife scum - Maori Nationalist subhumans & republican pigs who woould have no hope in Hell of ever being elected under the old First Past the Post (F.P.P.) political system.Jim Bolger is also the same scumbag who decided to ban New Zealanders from being awarded the much-loved British Royal Honours such as the Order of the British Empire.He didn't bother to consult the people at all. Jim Bolger's name is a byword for treachery,as he sold out the loyal people of Wanganui who were subjected to 90 days of Maori Nationalist subhumans illegally camping on Moutoa Gardens back in 1995 & intimidating their opponents in the process.The local District Council requested assistance from the Government to end the illegal occupation of Moutoa Gardens,& Bolger decided to do absolutely nothing.There were also private citizens,including myself,who were also actively involved in trying to end the illegal occupation by diplomatic means,as we did not want violence.Had the illegal occupation of Moutoa Gardens lasted longer than it did,I would have supported a rebellion,not only to try & expel the Maori Nationalist subhumans (most of who were not from the Wanganui area),but to send a strong message to Parliament that their policies were (& are!) absolutely repugnant to any decent-minded New Zealander's belief system. The Race Relations Act,1971 is a very weak piece of legislation,as it exempts a racist politician from prosecution for promoting hatred.For example,the notorious traitor Tariana Turia gave an openly Britanniphobic speech back in 2000 in which she was comparing the policies of 19th Century New Zealand colonial governments to the Holocaust.It was a speech that was nothing short of being a personal insult.At that time,I was giving advice to the then Governor-General of the Dominion,Sir Michael Hardie Boys.I told him,"It goes to prove that Tariana Turia deserves nothing less than being taken out & shot! It makes my blood boil".He told me that he could understand my anger.I replied,"Sir Michael,I do understand where Your Excellency is coming from.Like you,I do not want to see our troubled Dominion end up becoming like a cross between Ulster & Rhodesia - a bloodbath!". Unfortunately,my fears are starting to be proven to be correct.I wouldn't be too surprised if a civil war broke out over here in New Zealand.Parliament has done a lot of harm with its fundamentally undemocratic policies,thanks to Bulging Bolger the Pope of Rome's fascist teddy bear kicking off the process. Being of Scots descent,I've always held an extremely low opinion of Irish Roman Catholics,because wherever they have settled,they've caused far too much trouble.Coming from Wanganui,I am very fiercely independent,as our Royalist heritage is very strong.We have got the only opera house in New Zealand that has 'Royal' in its name. Aidan.
Religion is the root of all evil All that religion ultimately does is divide us all. It creates walls around each group and gives them all perceived morale superiority. If you look around and really look at the world almost all wars that are raging and have raged were fueled by opposing faiths. Someday I hope the world will realize that we all come from a common ancestry and are more alike than dislike. Matters not who believes their God has a bigger dick, which ones are true and which ones are false. They are all false because if one is wrong they are all wrong. All have ZERO fact to prove their existence. They serve to make us feel secure and safe in a world of savage animals. Makes people feel like life after death is possible and better than we have it now. Death is just like the billions of years before you were born... NOTHINGNESS. It strikes fear in the hearts of the differently minded who fear not existing. Don't fear it you will not have any sensation or consciousness just like before you were born. No time, no dimensionality, no construct of reality..truly nothingness. So suffice it to say no pain, no needs, no wants, no desires. So why fear total nothingness...you will never know... Makes me think that my time here is valuable and very finite. I want to do the best I can and enjoy myself as much as I can. Make the world a little better that when I entered it. The only way to extend your life is through having children. They are a continuance of you. You must raise them and love them as much as you can for as long as you can. Make them productive, intelligent, and questioning person. They are reflections of you. I will not teach religion of any kind to my son, if asked I will inform him on the various forms that exist. It will be up to him to make up his mind independent of mine. If he has the brain chemicals that make him want to believe in things that can not be proven or even sound plausible…so be it. I would have already done my job and made him a caring loving person before that. He will not be a person that straps a bomb on and blows up innocent people. Not a person that feels the need to degrade and vilify others. Others do that just fine on their own. I do hope he has the cognitive powers to understand evolution and science as the correct path to investigate. It is not that I have so much trust in science, just that I have more trust that non scientists are wrong. No need for faith when understanding is a tautology of existence. Just remember FAITH is the art of believeing in make believe. No proof. Not real. Some people believe Bugs Bunny, Aliens, and Loch Ness Monster is real...that takes faith... all equally have no real proof. Proof is what makes the differnce between fantasy and reality. Nothing unreal exists. Either way I will support my son in his life choices. I know others will not look upon him in such a well adjusted manner. It is those people that are the ultimate problem. I could not in all conscience of character ever teach him about God in any way that infers he is real. Just because millions of people believe in something does not make it real. Just a grandiose form of group delusion. A mutual reach around society. Religion is a group delusion, nothing more. It makes for inspiring or terrifying stories. Real life is scary enough why add make believe troubles to it. Peace and long life to you all.
But you have faith yourself. You have faith that your own thought processes are superior to those people who have faith in the Loch Ness Monster, the Great Pumpkin, or Jesus Christ. And you cannot prove that objectively. You worship your own intellect. And by some of your other comments, you're raising your son to have faith in his. That's religion, my friend, even if you don't want to acknowledge it.
Good point KLJ.. a little introspection proves your comments true. We all believe what we believe. Just trying to relate to the original question. Have a great day....
Such an interesting question and one I have thought of. I personally am not a religious person. Do people have the right to believe as they wish? Yes, and they will continue to do so no matter what. Fanatacism is a problem and has been and will always be. You hear it on the news all of the time. Mainly aimed at Muslims. Why just Muslims? Why not Jewish fanatics or Christian fanatics? They are no better. When one says "mine is the only way" it's a problem. It's a problem that has kept this world in turmoil for a long time. It meshes with politics. I was always under the impression that this country was founded, in part, on religious freedom. It's not just freedom of religion it's freedom from religion. So why is there a Moral Majority? It's not my morals and who makes the decisions? Who made them "God"? I've seen religion get people through some tough times. Their faith helped them. I've also had people show up on my doorstep to "save" me. Excuse me, I don't go to church and don't go around beating on people's doors telling them they shouldn't either. It's a personal decision and shoulkd be respected not attacked. Always falls on deaf ears unfortunately. Believe as you will and more power to you. Just don't come knocking on my door or attacking my country. It's not religion at that point. It's rubbish.
I keep my faith personal and prefer it when others do as well..... I cannot remember any Baptist suicide bombers, or Morman declared Jihad against the Jehovas, and have never seen a video of a Catholic chopping the head off a Protestant. No 7th day Adventist has ever flown a plane into any building, that I know of at least. Hmmmm, maybe thats why we call certain PORTIONS of certain religions fanatics???
Good point and you probably won't. My point is that we should keep to ourselves and just get along. I have friends of all denominations from Baptist to Wican to Jewish. Unfortunately the "non terrorists" do fuel the fire and have been for centuries. Take it back to the Crusades and Inquisition to see the beheadings I guess but that history STILL exists which still fuels the fire. People have done terrible things to one another for centuries all in the name of their particular God. Funny thing is that the Gods and Prophets in their teachings always seem to lean toward peace. Man has messed it up. Religion is power and power corrupts. Yes, the current Muslim "fanatics" are a bad bunch. Any sane person would not deny that. Does that make ALL Muslims bad though? Is abusing the Koran a way to "show them". No it only shows "us" stooping to a terrorists level. How about cults. We've had some fine people in that area. Jim Jones didn't behead anyone that I know of. He did mix up one hell of a batch of Kool Aid though for a mass suicide all in the name of religion. When European explorers landed on our shores they discovered a bunch of "savages". Hmmm... these savages had done just fine without them. They had some of the most pure religion and yes, in some cases, it dealt with human sacrifice. These were their beliefs and had been so for centuries. Well that's not gonna work we have to convert them. Conquer and convert that is. People don't forget these things. It is passed down through the generations. How can one wonder why so many other faiths hate "Christians". Been a pretty ruthless bunch throughout the years. Not the way I think it was intended but true nonetheless. The Native American point always hits home with me. My stepmother was Sioux and a true lady. My dad converted to Baptist and took her along for the ride. At one time she went to actually see a White Buffalo born in Wisconsin. My dad was furious. Why wouldn't he be after all it is considered a sign of PEACE AMONG NATIONS. What a savage concept. Turns out that at one point a White Buffalo was killed by some aholes. Prejudice in religion rears it's head. They may as well have beheaded someone on film as it surely planted a big seed of hatred. Guess I'm not keeping my "faith" very well hidden am I? I have very little and the reasons listed are just the tip of the iceberg.
I found this post on another forum some time ago and copied it because it rings of truth. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Me, a caucasion man born in America. My family is european as is my wife’s family etc... I come from a Germanic, Scotch, Irish Celtic Heritage of which I’m very proud of and have values associated with this background. Values which include Pride, Honor, Beauty, Identity, and Love. My ancient people simply wanted to be left alone and to live life the way they saw fit. For they were the fathers of Europe. They (their Celtic tribes) worshiped Gods of Life and War for a thousand years before the Greeks and Persians were even acknowledged as ancient powers. The discovery of Iron can be traced back to my ancestors, this discovery changed the world. We were the first to have roads, first to tame, ride, and use the horse, the first to mine and shape many metals, even the first to introduce the use of pants (bracca), and the last to stand after the invading armies and tribes swept thru, our spirit was never conquered. I AM VERY PROUD OF WHO I AM. Gaul --The ultimate prize of the Roman world, roughly all of France and Spain with a portion of Germany to the River Rhine. My ancestors fought the Romans at Alesia in central France for simple FREEDOM and while they subsequently lost, their Celtic identify didn’t die when the battle ended, it just moved a little further west as we were a collective people who migrated as did many ancient peoples. It was called ‘Ver Sacrum’ the Sacrifice of Spring. A time when the young members of a tribe were driven out so they would form new tribes elsewhere with alliances from whence they came. The Celtic Spirit runs strong and proud in the western European countries of Ireland, United Kingdom, France, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland as well as others. The Celtic Spirit of freedom and exploration has now taken root in new lands like America and Canada. My people were the ones who wrenched it from the aboriginal peoples and built it into a new Celtic Nation based upon the values of Freedom, Strenght and Unity. My ancestors went westward after migrating from Europe, met groups of similar peoples forming small communities in a new land with similar values. They survived, multiplied, and died protecting their identity and heritage. My ancestors fought in the US Revolution, War of 1812, The Battle for Texas Independence, Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam. I served for 20 years and spent time in Germany, Norway, Italy, and Saudi Arabia armed and protecting the interests of this nation, for the acorn doesn’t fall too far from the tree and susppose I'm a Warrior too. Will the tradition continue? It’s up to us as a Celtic people to remain united and strong. We are a Nation of Warriors made up of a thousand me’s with hundreds of individual backgrounds and stories wrought with hardship, happiness and hope. ///////////////////////////////////////////// Pretty good eh? Ben
Too long to quote Ben but yes I DID like it. Although totally different than what I posted there are many similarities. You know people wanting to be free, worship as they please., defend their country. Silly stuff like that. Then come the invaders and it's obvious how many cultures this has happened to. I am actually of French and German descent. In this time of political correctness I ask people to refer to me as Gaulish American.
There was more, but like you said too long. Copied it off of a military site about 2 years ago, think it was http://www.blackfive.net/ Lots of war stories and testaments to actual battle stories. Ben
