our situation in Iraq

..we lost the initiative.
-we had the initiative when we first went, we paralyzed them with fear and struck quickly (that is how war is conducted when done properly). But we lost it when young brazen Iraqis expolited our weakness and inability to develop an endpoint (and the fact that we have a bureaucracy and things like rules of engagment makes it impossible to effectively deal with them):
Our opponent is anonymous.
has no rules of engagment.
has a deep rooted ideology that ties into the religion of the native population.
They move freely while we must wear extensive armour that makes us sitting ducks.
They have extensive kinship networks through Iraq with histories that extend back generations (we are preceived as the occupying outsiders).
And all of this is in the middle of a civil war

can anyone give a reasonable notion of what hope we have in Iraq, or even just an endpoint?

 

There is no hope out here. The only people who want to stay here to "finish the job" are the kissasses who agree with everything their boss says so they can get a good oer/ncoer & promotion brownie points. There's also a small percentage of infantry-heads that just want the bragging rights for being in a firefight.

We can send a billion more troops out here, but that's not gonna make the sunnis wake up one day and magically get along with the shiites. They've been hating each other for thousands of years, ever since their prophet mohammed died. Yeah, the same one who founded their religion.

It's all over the news how politicans are saying "support the troops" and "don't cut war funding". These are the same politicans who voted to give servicemembers a 2.2% pay raise- the lowest since 1994. The bottom line is that soldiers don't want more money to buy the equipment we need to stay...we don't want a few more weeks or months spent at home before we're forced to come back for another 15 month tour...we don't want more awareness that we lose just as many college-aged kids every single month for the last 4 years that were lost at Virginia Tech...and we don't want to hear more baloney about how we're fighting terrorists out here so we don't have to fight them at home. Terrorism went up worldwide ever since we got here, and our being here did nothing to prevent those guys who wanted to attack Fort Dix.

What we want is to come home for good. Or transfers to Afghanistan.

 

Interesting perpective from the inside if, a) You're not a smurf account for one of our sneakier members, and b) You really are out there in the field.

Your opinion runs counter to what many of our local vets seem to tell us about the war. They are more of the asskissing variety you speak of. Interesting anyway.

 

Dude, your wacked out of your liberal mind...

 

You have to admit Ben, this isn't the view you have been touting with regard to supporting our soldiers. It's not all, lets support the troops, and we have to stay the course, etc.

 

SanMiguel doesn't give you anymore or less than what one disgruntled grunt or TDY airman might type in protest in relation to their current situation. Balad Air Base or Anaconda it doesn't matter as it's the same location. Sadly FWIW, I'll (be able to deduce) know something today that some may not...

 

You attempt to strengthen your arugement by belittling his opinion as just one disgruntled grunt (SGT). I'd say all things being equal, his opinion carries much more weight than yours does due to the fact that he isn't sitting in an armchair right now. I know what a soldier faces if he or she veralizes any descent or expresses any opposition to the mission as laid out by the miliary command. The taunting, the bullying, the harassment, and the ostracizing. The one luxury you aren't allowed in the military is the ability to think for yourself. Unfortunately, this restriction is often carried into civilian life long after it is no longer necessary. I'm sure you knew soldiers like him and probably participated in the harassment that was inflicted on him. Your opinion was cemented from that day on and will most likely follow you to the grave. You did what you were told and got out and now you look back at your life and it makes you feel good to have accomplished what you did and that is all that matters. Your perspective is not complicated and suits you well.
This current soldier also has a perspective that is just as valid as yours even if it is different. Dismissing it or attempting to belittle it because it differs from your own is disingenuous and fails to give the support to the troops you proclaim so often must be done. Maybe in future posts you should say, Support SOME troops and NOT others. I for one think even the asskissers need at least some ChapStick® once in a while. :high5:

 

Interesting, but being an active duty service member, who has been there and wants to see us continue and win along with 95% of my other active duty members that I am in contact with would be called a kissass. Indeed, very interesting it what some will listen to and others will dismiss

 

This is my second go round. Some of the others here are on their third. I was excited to come out here in 2003, but I guess everyone is their first time out. I'll admit to being a "disgruntled grunt". Complaining is a time-honored military tradition. If I wasn't deployed, I'd be whining about having to paint rocks for some GEN's visit, raking lines in the dirt, or pulling grass from the sidewalk. I'll do what I'm told, but I don't have to like it. I'm not a fan of the "dog & pony show" routine.

I don't like how the KBR employees out here make 4x our salary for doing the same jobs we used to do. Water purification, fueling, truck drivers, food service, etc. I know one bus driver who makes over $80,000 a year just to shuttle people back and forth between the terminal and the helicopters. A busdriver. Another just answers phones and books people onto space-a flights. She makes over $120,000 a year.

I don't like how there's a curfew, and anybody acting suspicious around our perimeter at night is obviously up to no good. We have to observe and report. Even if they're digging in the middle of the road planting ieds, or walking around with an AK, we can't shoot unless they point a weapon at us or if we see them launching mortars/rockets. One guy was working at our ECP and was demoted for opening fire after he perceived a threat. The rules of engagement are so mired up in red tape, people have to second guess themselves before pulling the trigger. They either shoot and risk getting in trouble, or wait to let the bad guys get off the first shot.

I don't like how the lower enlisted have to work their hearts out day in and day out for 15 months straight, and the most I can give them for their work is an Army Commendation Medal. The Army is giving them out like candy, so they don't mean anything anymore. Officers, on the other hand, are pretty much guaranteed to get a bronze star for being out here,no doubt most of the time being spent sitting around their air conditioned offices.

I might be alone complaining about everything out here on this board, but there are plenty other people out here who think the same. In the chow halls & smoking areas, it's a popular topic of conversation. Most of us hate it out here, could care less if they want to kill each other, and don't ever want to come back. If I'm wrong and the majority don't think this way, then there's probably a different reason re-enlistment levels are down, recruitment is down, and entrance standards were lowered to accept people with lower scores, minor police records, and previously prohibited tattoos. We aren't even kicking out the fatbodies and pt failures like the old days.

 

Have you served? There are those I have had philisophical arguments with every day due to the differences in our general beleifs and our party affiliations. No one got taunted, no one was oppressed, no one had to stick to group think. Even in the military most appreciate dissent. Gone are the days when ncos had barely a high school education and officers had at least a four year college education. Those days are the ones marred by group think. Now officers are still required to have a 4 year, but a lot of enlisted and not just Sgts have 2 and 4 year degrees, some have masters and even a few have doctorates. Our education level is commensurate with our officers it is only that we needed cash help from the military to get ours. There is little group think anymore, I know, I live this life everyday. Oh and BTW, I have actually become LESS conservative since I joined the military, not more and not indoctrinated.

 

No Meon, I'm not putting down his or her opinion. I'm just saying that the views of 99% of the people in Iraq are they want be anyplace but there or to go home. I had the same feeling many times when deployed and so have others who've gone off to war.

Initally excited about being deployed, but once there, they will be counting the days until time to leave, often on a calendar with a red magic-marker...

What's wrong with that. I did my time (retired) and it wasn't so long ago I can't remember how things really are. No, our opinions are pretty much the same.

Once again, your incorrect. The offending military member will simply be talked to in a corrective kind of way. It will become more severe as time goes by and the same infractions occur, but taunting from their buddies just doesn't happen. Actually, their peers may look up to them for speaking their mind.

I was in the Air Force, we had airmen. Basicallly the same in rank, but definately not soldiers either. The soldier had is vastly worse off. And if you look at my prior response you'll see this statement has no basis in the conversation.

There are many luxuries one gives up when they raise their right hand and recite the necessary words, but I can assure you that thinking for youself is not one of them. BE AN ARMY OF ONE they say and to do so one must be able to think on their feet, independently...

You mentioned this earlier and I've corrected you. It's too late for you to really get an idea about what it's like to serve your nation, but the National Guard might take you in a civilian janitorial position. Even better, encourage your sons to join up or at least allow them to make up their own minds. Your negative and skewed opinions about US would change then I guarantee it...

You should practice what you preach, because your support of NO troops all the time speaks volumes...

Ben, MSgt, USAF (Ret)

 

Just reading between the lines!

I would challenge this statement of yours as I would bet the farm on your never being closer to the military than the front gate of some military instalation. Having said that, I also ask what kind of support is this when you yourself belittle these very same people with the description that you gave? They aren't as dumb as you would like to make them out to be, or seem to believe.encil:

 

that is what I am asking, what constitutes winning?

 

Well...thanks for serving all the same, I know its rough and I hope you are home soon. I served my time, luckily I did not have to go over there. I understand though how bleak it might seem.

I served but never in wartime so I wont pretend I know what you are going through. I was never terribly gung-ho when I was in nor were most around me...now that I am out, I dont pretend I am special for having served...I have put it behind me...I only joined to get money for college and, to be honest, my whole family served and its a bit of tradition...my father served in the navy as did I, grandfather and great grandfather in the army...my sister was military police in the army with her husband also in the army serving in the first gulf war and then somalia

Its amazing the far different attitudes my family and many I know have in comparison to some I see online. They are fully able to give every bit of support to our men and women there and still have somewhat strong personal feelings about the futility of the mission. They attempted to pull my brother in law back, he has his own business, 2 kids...and no wish to step foot in Iraq again

Anyway...let me say good luck and if you need anything...let me know...I regularly send packages out to some guys I know there (snack, baby wipes, etc..) who in turn send me...stuff They seem to have about the same outlook as yourself. PM if you need anything, I would be more than happy to help you out any way I can.

 

The problem with asking that particular question is that you already know the answer. If you know what it means to lose, then by definition you also know what it means to win. If you have a checklist that has on it "If A, B, or C happens, then we lose," if A, B, or C doesn't happen, then we win. Is winning harder than losing? Sure. Are there more ways to lose than to win? Absolutely. Can we argue over whether or not the proverbial A, B, or C is reversible? Definitely. But if you can say we've lost, irretrievably, than you can identify what's constitutes the win we'll never get.

 

Specifically what constitutes winning, if it is such an easy question why don't you answer it?

 

http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=24794

 

The only way we can win in Iraq is to take out Syria and neutralize Iran.

 

WTF???

 

All right with me!

It's better than anything you have come up with!