OK, Time is up

Still a chemical change Clownmuppet or dont you understand basic chemistry LOL what you can read I thought you were still on the primers
LOL if you wernt so pathetic you might get taken seriously once in a while

 

Oh and try telling us how the twin towers collapsed if there was no chemical change to the composition of the steel structure? and feel free to use coloring pencils when you draw your answer Clownmuppet

 

Very obvious that you do not begin to understand basic chemistry. I learned that much in high school - and by the way, that was my highest achievement test score.

 

OK brainiac what is it if it is not a chemical change?

Rust is scientifically called oxidation, which occurs when oxygen comes in long-term contact with certain metals. Over time, the oxygen combines with the metal at an atomic level, forming a new compound called an oxide

Now if it forms a new compound that is a chemical change

Answers.com - Why is the change from iron to rust considered a chemical change

Rust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chemical Reactions


Npw those are just on rust, care to provide links that say rusting is not a chemical change?

 

I understand chemistry and metallurgy and hold a BS in Materials Science Engineering from Lehigh University with a specialization in metallurgy. What are your credentials?

I have explained this many times in the 9/11 thread which you obviously have not read. Your lack of knowledge on this subject is making you look very foolish. When you say chemical change, it refers to the chemical composition of the metal. Heating the metal does not change the amount of carbon in the steel, hence, there is no change to the chemical composition. What does change is the crystal structure of the metal. The mechanical properties of the metal are controlled by dislocations and grain size. In the annealing process, first the dislocations are removed which results in improved ductility but does not significantly alter strength. After the recovery phase, recrystallization occurs followed by grain growth. This process changes the microstructure of the metal and results in increased ductility, reduced hardness, and reduced strength. A steel that is subjected to a temperature above it's annealing temperature will eventually lose it's strength. This effect is what caused the metal in the WTC towers to fail.

Characterizing a microstructural change as a chemical change is incorrect as is your example of the formation of an oxide layer through corrosion. Having said that, corrosion can change the chemical composition of metal, but not with steel.

An example would be the plug type dezincification of brass (copper-zinc alloy) which is a localized form of corrosion. The corrosive process through diffusion causes the zinc to dealloy from the brass matrix forming zinc oxide and leaving a copper rich area behind, thereby changing the chemical composition. Plug dezincification will show as a red copper spot on the brass.

Does this example help you understand the difference between a chemical change and a microstructural change?

 

Yes, rust is a chemical change, but it is not caused by heat. Your words "take a pice[sic] of steel heat it and you get a thin flaky oxide coating on the surface". In an oxygen rich atmosphere, that will happen. It is not caused by the heat, but it is catalyzed by heat if, and only if, oxygen is present. It will also occur at room temperature. If you heat steel in the absence of oxygen, nothing will happen. That is exactly what they do with MIG and TIG welding.

BTW, My degree is a BS in Chemical Engineering from Cornell U.

 

UM clown muppet brought rust into the equasion not me so take that one up with him LOL he is also making himself look even dimmer as I was intitaly agreeing with him regarding the twin towers but he is so caught up in his own percieved brilliance he coudnt see that so as usual he reverts to his name calling and childish behaviour.

"Oxygen has another way of causing a chemical reaction. In fact, as you may remember early in the tutorial iron or carbon steel all originate from iron ore that is an oxide of iron. Furthermore, if iron is exposed outside in the weather for 100-year or more it would turn to rust and leach into the soil reverting back to a soft iron ore."

You can read about it here (The non Chemical reaction LOL)
Basics of Corrosion Chapter AIS Metallurgical Testing in association with AIS Technical Training - Introduction to Steel Industry of Metallurgy...a Metallurgical Tutorial of steels and metals

 

You also need to learn what you wrote. YOU brought "rust into the equation", not Lehigh.

That "thin flaky oxide coating" is most commonly known as rust

That is twice you have stated that the chemical composition is changed by heat. That is just plane wrong. You can reference all the BS you want, but you are so far out of you league it is funny.

 

This discussion needs context.

The formation of an oxide layer is a chemical change, but only to the oxide layer. The composition of the underlying metal is unchanged as well as the associated mechanical properties unless the corrosion becomes very advanced.

Now modclown, put the conversation back in context. Tom stated that the steel was chemically altered to affect the mechanical properties to facilitate the collapse. I then asked him to "explain how you chemically alter steel". This was not a generalized question, it was in relation to the WTC buildings and their structural steel. You have shown that corrosion will chemically alter the surface of steel without significantly affecting it's mechanical properties. Would you care to explain how the interior structural beams of the WTC are supposed to corrode. I don't think it was going to rain in there and I am certain you couldn't stick the 100+ story buildings in a furnace.

Inquiring metallurgists want to know!

 

This man presents his honest assessment of 9/11 to you all. He's given it an honest effort and discovered, that hey, you know what? This is all BS. The man is intelligent enough to conclude the 9/11 ISN'T anywhere close to the "official" BS we were fed.
Integrity comes in there somewhere too. Something many of you could give two s*its about.
Open your eyes, you pathetic fools![/QUOTE]

What will convince you? You will die and God shall shine the light on the fact that you wasted your life believing in paranoid delusions. You have my pity. Everyone else here is just an ahole, but you are not well.

 

Lets see muppet I never said they corroded I said that I believed that the basic chemical structure of steel could be alterd by heating it now even if it only changes the surface by creating a thin flaky oxide coating on the surface that is a chemical change because it can not occure indipendently of the steel it occures on the steel itself and is by deffinition chemicaly altering it. Which you said it was not and that it was called rust, I didnt call it anything other than a Oxide coating caused by HEAT perhaps you did not read that?
Now for the other bright spark RC he stated and I quote "That "thin flaky oxide coating" is most commonly known as rust" again I mentioned a coating of oxide caused by heat not corrosion that was simply you jumping on the muppets bandwagon trying to bask in his reflected glory LOL

Also oh bright spark by heating the steel even to a relativly low temprature the integraty of the steel can be compromised add to that the shock wave from a explosion the result will most likely be the steel colapsing

 

You can't alter the chemical structure of steel by heating it. Your knowledge of metallurgy is ridiculous. Forming a thin layer of corrosion on the surface of the metal by using heat or some other method has absolutely no effect on the composition of the underlying steel. Rust and corrosion and oxidation are all the same thing genius.

This is not true at all. Why do you continue to attempt to speak about a subject you obviously know nothing about?

 

Yep I win you loose LOL

 

What is the chemical composition of this?

 

Who cares I win thats all that matters you loose LOL

 

You believe in God?!? Oh....the motto on the dollar...I get it.

 

Obviously, you do LOL

 

LOL oh getting upset are we LOL Grow up kiddy winks you can not get the rust or oxide without the steel and for it to form there has to be a chemical change in the composition of the steel The steel has to react chemicaly to a outside force) now if you are too stupid to understand something that simple return to school No one mentiond underlying or anything else other than you.
But you tell me what the oxide is formed from if not the steel itself and how it is formed without a chemical reaction and change in the chemical composition of the steel even if that change is only micro it is still a change..
As for steel been compromised even at a lower heat than melting point that is fact, try it yourself 1st of get a steel bar any grade then hit it with a hammer, then heat it to an nice cherry red then hit it with a hammer it wil begin to bend (you know the sort of thing blacksmiths do every day of the week) How the hell do you think they make swords etc without working the hot steel? Hot steel is more likely to loose its shape or even break than cold steel, it is mallable, pliable and can even be stretched. So yeh I win LOL

 

You are so upset, you cannot even speak intelligently, but you have apparently dropped that claim "that you can alter the basic Chemical composition of steel by heating it up". Now you are trying to tell me that "nice cherry red" is a "a relativly[sic] low temprature[sic]". Keep them coming. I need some more laughs.