National Day of Prayer; May 3, 2007

I could always start off with our old friend and ally Joseph Stalin, but that would be too easy now wouldn't it?
So without doing any digging, how about Lori Brown (I think her middle name is Lipman or Liptan)? A true girl after your heart and with the same endering features.Kiss

 

again I would have to say you are fooling yourself if you think a person who has professed a faith in God would be any less of a gamble...Anyone who doesn’t believe in God most likely has developed other mechanisms to develop their moral standards...but that is a bias that must be over come by people who do not believe in god...it is why most people who run for office will at least pretend to have faith. Even if they are scum, it makes people of faith feel better to see that they believe in God…

It goes right back to what I was saying before about people who believe in god seem to need like people around them...reason why they need this is debatable but I tend to think its because...like believing in an invisible friend...If I say I have an invisible friend...people will say I am nuts...If I say I have an invisible friend and a million other people say they believe I have an invisible friend...I am no longer just a lone nut believing in an invisible friend..a million people back me up now...I gain comfort from those people who beleive the way I do...and maybe we can force others to accept that I have an invisible friend as well Like old dan...who seems to have a nice agenda to put religion into the schools and government instead of keeping it in the home and church. He wants us all to know he has an invisible friend...and he wants everyone to believe it...he wants to maintain a majority. It makes him feel better...



now if that person said he has an invisible friend…we would never think of voting for him and in fact we would recommend that he get help, if he believes in an invisible creator…that puts people at ease…he cant be all bad


I don’t care at all whether a person believes in a god or not, I simply care what they plan to do once they are in office…and if religion isn’t something that concerns them…if they think it is a subjective matter best left out of government, best left in churches and homes and gathering whether people CHOOSE to go freely…they have my vote

 

I don't know Lori Brown and I'm pretty sure Joseph Stalin wasn't elected to any public offices in this country after his stint as head of the Soviet Union. I guess he could have won an election out in Wyoming somewhere and nobody noticed.

BTW Got my set of statehood quarter proofs today and Wyoming has to be the lamest design yet. I wonder what genius submitted that design, the local DMV bureaucrat? Hang your head in shame, in shame.

Edit - Added on:


Is this who you are talking about, some lobbiest?

"You can be elected as an openly gay politician in this country, but you can't be elected as an openly atheistic one," said Lori Lipman Brown, who was hired last fall to be the Washington, D.C., lobbyist for an organization devoted to atheist causes, the Secular Coalition for America. She's believed to be the first paid lobbyist for the unbelievers in the nation's capital, the front lines of the culture wars.

 

I lived in Wyoming for a time...its the most beautiful place in the world...one of them. I had the pleasure of working in Yellowstone Park.

 

I am more comfortable with the term "Nontheism" or "Nontheist" than I am with Athiest. It has a lot less to do with opposing specific religious organizations and more to do with the more general concept of not believing in any kind of God regardless of which flavor you represent. :high5:

 

IF you were to check a little closer, you would have found that she was also a congresswoman at one time.

 

She is a self described secular jew...how ever that comes about I dont know:

Secular Jewish culture embraces several related phenomena; above all, it is the culture of secular communities of Jewish people, but it can also include the cultural contributions of individuals who identify as secular Jews, or even those of religious Jews working in cultural areas not generally considered to be connected to religion.

She is an advocate for secular government...a bit of a crusader...a proponent of secular humanism, She was a senator from Nevada...and to someone like old dan...the ENEMY of all that is right and good who looks to keep GOD out of our schools...

 

I would say you are fooling yourself also, so that's something we won't agree upon. The mass murderers of the 20th century [e.g., Stalin, Hitler, Mao] were not religious men. The other "moral standards" they developed involved a total focus on their own power and authority without concern for the welfare of others. Where Hitler used death camps to deal with his unwanted populations, the US used temporary internment camps for the Japanese. Bad enough, but no comparison to the atheist solution. You are correct that people pretending a belief in God are still a problem, but the problem is the lie of the atheist pretending to be religious and not the belief in God itself. The "invisible friend" reference that you seem to like that comes from a popular TV show is cute but probably not relevant here.

 

Where did you get this idea from? The Atheist Solution? Do you mean all these people that were killed by these ruthless authoritarians were killed because as you claim they were Atheists? Not because they had some political agenda, not because they were consolidating power, not because they were simply silencing descenting voices, but just to further the cause of Atheist ideals? I'd like to see your proof of this statement. They didn't even use Atheism as a rallying cry the way religion does. Nobody tried to get people to unbelieve or die the way religious movements have throughout history. Hilter for example, used the Jews to climb to power but he could have used any group that held the same power in German society. He didn't try to convert them to Atheism.

 

My point is that many atheist rulers of the 20th century did not demonstrate the moral restraint to refrain from mass murder if it furthered their political and personal goals.

 

The Atheist Prayer...
http://nobeliefs.com/GAMOW/GAMOW24.htm

 

I kinda like that...

looks like it...I will continue taking a person as they come, on their actions whether they believe in god or not and you will continue to lump them all together and stress bad examples in bias...no problem...Good thing I dont point to religious nuts like jim jones (and the many other terrible examples) and say all religious people could be like him thus none should be allowed in positions of responisbility To each his own I guess.

 

It's sort of funny that this comes down to a question of moral correctness or one could argue moral superiority. Different religions have different moralities that fit their own teachings. It is O.K. for one religion to smite a nonbeliving neighbor or kill if the act is sanctioned by God or marry your 12 year old sister or eat the brains of your enemies or throw women off of a cliff to purify them from evil or any number of other religiously inspired behaviors.
It seems like once a religion takes a hold of a society, what is and isn't moral is pretty much determined by what keeps it in power. For instance, the Catholic Church (hope Aiden doesn't see this) used to kill people for trying to print the bible in language common people could read. They buned people alive for this heresy because it threatened their power to solely interpret the bible. Is it moral to burn people alive? If you are the dominant religion and you say it is, it must be, Right?
Morals are just methods that some use to control others and don't even necessarily follow themselves. I wouldn't get too hung up on them if I were you.

 

Moen, you have to go pretty far back into history to find behaviors to fit your model. In the post-industrial revolution world, religion has been more of a restraint on behavior, not an enabler. Atheism has retained it's ability to justify just about anything. If you want to make accurate judgments about the modern world, you have to mentally live in it. There will always be a few religious crackpots around the fringe of society, but not many of them get elected to high office or are representative of mainstream religious thought.

 

As long as you don't want anything to do with history, let's look at the post industrial modern world. We have Islamists waging wars around the world, but they don't count because that isn't your religion. We have a list a mile long of religiously inspired war.

Afghanistan Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in part of the country. The fighting continues
Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers. 2
Côte d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christian Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5 A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.
Cyprus Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.
East Timor Christians & Muslims A Roman Catholic country. About 20% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable.
India Animists, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life.
Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.
Indonesia, province of Halmahera Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.
Iraq Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily degenerating.
Kashmir Hindus & Muslims A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989.
Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story
Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.
Middle East Jews, Muslims, & Christians The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP. Major battle in Lebanon during mid-2006. No resolution appears possible.
Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. More details
Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.
Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims Low level mutual attacks.
Philippines Christians & Muslims A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries. More details
Russia,
Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: "In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to 'blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia'." 7
South Africa Animists & "Witches" Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic, are murdered each year.
Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war for independence since 1983 with the rest of the country (70% Sinhalese Buddhist). Hundreds of thousands have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation. The situation in mid-2006 is degenerating.
Sudan Animists, Christians & Muslims Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. 3 Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants. 8
Thailand Buddhists & Muslims Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand -- a country that is 95% Buddhist. The army has seized power and has agreed to talks with the rebels.
Tibet Buddhists & Communists Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues. *
Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year. 6

Thank God we have God to save us from ourselves!

 

Nice Googling. Provide a link next time.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/curr_war.htm

Afghanistan Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in part of the country. The fighting continues
Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers. 2
Côte d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christian Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5 A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.
Cyprus Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.
East Timor Christians & Muslims A Roman Catholic country. About 20% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable.
India Animists, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs Various conflicts that heat up periodically producing loss of life.
Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.
Indonesia, province of Halmahera Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.
Iraq Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, western armed forces By mid-2006, a small scale civil war, primarily between Shiite and Sunni Muslims started. The situation appears to be steadily degenerating.
Kashmir Hindus & Muslims A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989.
Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story
Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.
Middle East Jews, Muslims, & Christians The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP. Major battle in Lebanon during mid-2006. No resolution appears possible.
Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. More details
Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.
Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims Low level mutual attacks.
Philippines Christians & Muslims A low level conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country has continued for centuries. More details
Russia,
Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Many atrocities have been alleged on both sides. According to the Voice of the Martyrs: "In January 2002 Chechen rebels included all Christians on their list of official enemies, vowing to 'blow up every church and mission-related facility in Russia'." 7
South Africa Animists & "Witches" Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practicing black magic, are murdered each year.
Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war for independence since 1983 with the rest of the country (70% Sinhalese Buddhist). Hundreds of thousands have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence. The South Asian Tsunami in 2004-DEC induced some cooperation. The situation in mid-2006 is degenerating.
Sudan Animists, Christians & Muslims Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict in which the Muslim regime committed genocide against both Animists and Christians in the south of the country. Slavery and near slavery were practiced. A ceasefire was signed in 2006-MAY between some of the combatants. 3 Warfare continues in the Darfur region, primarily between a Muslim militia and Muslim inhabitants. 8
Thailand Buddhists & Muslims Muslim rebels have been involved in a bloody insurgency in southern Thailand -- a country that is 95% Buddhist. The army has seized power and has agreed to talks with the rebels.
Tibet Buddhists & Communists Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues. *
Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year. 6

 

Moen, you're attributing the entire cause for everthing to religion. I don't think any reasonable person believes that. Even you can't possibly believe that culture, language, race, political affiliation, land, natural resources, food, money/wealth, ethnicity, national identity, custom, and plain old power plays have nothing to do with the list you compiled. In the complete absence of religion, virtually all of the conflicts would still take place and the national leadership would still pursue their goals. You could also add up all of the conflicts you listed and still not equal one Stalin, Mao or Hitler. Religion is a way to magnify the other differences between people when it suits the needs of the dictator. But genuinely religious people rarely resort to mass murder for that reason alone, and I don't think you have demonstrated otherwise. In fact, you have demonstrated the need to elect people with genuine religious morality and integrity to positions of leadership to avoid the results you listed.

 

Because...??????

 

No I am not attributing everything to religion. Religion is certainly a component of these disputes but it also doesn't seem to be any kind of deterrent either. Their higher religious morals don't seem to prevent them from slaughtering each other and that is my point. People don't believe in the Greek Gods anymore but you don't see people starting conflicts because they want everyone to not believe in the Greek Gods. Atheism was a component of Communism but no more than taking communion is part of the Catholic religion. It wasn't the impetus for the ideology of Communism. I think people will kill people and religion is just another reason for doing so that people are willing to get behind. You turn and say exactly what you are accusing me of. You are attributing the acts of those authoritarian regimes to their Atheism and not all of the other factors that contributed to their behaviors.
You have not demonstrated that religion prevents acts of atrocity and therefore is no more a moral barometer than Atheism. I think it would be hard to imagine a people that didn't harm other people with or without the presence of religions or the lack of them.
The question of moral superiority has not been answer here. The question of moral depravity seems to be answered though. Religion or not, people will slaughter each other without regard to learned or never learned moral teachings. It doesn't seem to make any difference whether you know it's wrong or you don't know or care. Morals seem to be as convenient as necessary. I'm against either side claiming moral authority.

 

Just to go back a little bit

Dear God:
Why didn't you save the school children at: ?.
Virginia Tech 04/16/07
Amish Country, PA
Wisconsin
Columbine High School
Moses Lake , Washington 2/2/96
Bethel , Alaska 2/19/97
Pearl , Mississippi 10/1/97
West Paducah , Kentucky 12/1/97
Stamp, Arkansas 12/15/97
Jonesboro , Arkansas 3/24/98
Edinboro , Pennsylvania 4/24/98
Fayetteville , Tennessee 5/19/98
Springfield , Oregon 5/21/98
Richmond , Virginia 6/15/98
Littleton , Colorado 4/20/99
Taber , Alberta , Canada 5/28/99
Conyers , Georgia 5/20/99
Deming , New Mexico 11/19/99
Fort Gibson , Oklahoma 12/6/99
Santee , California 3/ 5/01 and
El Cajon , California 3/22/01?
Sincerely,
Concerned Student
-----------------------------------------------------
Reply:
Dear Concerned Student:
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely,
God

Are you seriously suggesting,in the manner of Pat Robertson,that your diety either caused or allowed these tragedies to happen because of an annoyance caused by prayer - or rather lack of prayer in schools.

Bill