Muslims and western society

Oooo, good come back. I can see how you would compare the death penalty for violent murderers to the death penalty for having sex or not wearing the right clothes. Yep, perfect example...

 

It also ignores the fact that the Pope is the most prominent opponent of the death penalty. The United States is a secular state.

 

So, you propose changing families attitudes about their "honor" and "religion" how? Killing them? Girls are killed by their own families for the most part and if their Suadi Royal Family doesn't want to stop it, what do you propose we do to Saudi Arabia? Attack Iraq?

Or does their evil deeds ensure your ticket to heaven? According to the Christian named eddo, sin is sin is sin, so, you guys may want to straighten that out before you decide to hate, condemn, and condone killing people based on the teachings of Jesus.


Their governments, which we support those that do as we desire, allow it to continue... How odd.. Guess we don't really give a sh*t what they do to their women, do we? Although, it sure helps to rally support, conjure hate based upon religion, and beat the war drums so we can bathe in oil.. How honorable of "us". Heaven awaits your glorious presence!

A true believer of Jesus speaks against hate and violence of any and all kinds, not for it. A Christian forgives, not condemns... A Christian loves their enemy... A Christian judges not, lest they be judged according to their judgments and the measure they give will be the measure they receive... Are you a Christian?

 

Spinitaway Media Sanitation Services
When Christians Kill
By TESS HARPER

"Our troops" (preferred term. Avoid "military" or "bombs", as those words can get people upset) seem to have, regrettably, killed nine children inside a home in another inevitable accident in Afghanistan. This is going to present us with yet another challenge, linguistics-wise, because as you surely know by now, we have a very, very Christian President, which means that everything he orders his military to do, and everything his military orders our troops to do, is of course consistent with Christian principles.

I've been on the horn all morning with Washington on this potential PR disaster, and I know that my readers are concerned as well, lest our military missions or our rules of engagement be questioned (Tess Tip: "rules of engagement" reliably quells opposition, as it sounds too official and sophisticated for the average reader to dare question). But not to worry, Tess is on the case. A bit of shuffling around is in order, but if we work fast, we can prevent the usual whining about how "US aggression" has led to more civilian deaths, etc., blah blah blah.

Never fear, Dear Reader: As long as we get the words right, people will have forgotten all about those nine juveniles by, oh, Tuesday at the latest.

You see, when Christians kill, we have to have certain-wording. The right wording has been brilliantly used by our leaders these last two years to nip in the bud any dangerous notions that killing is somehow un-Christlike. I mean we all know that Jesus would be the first to commend the bombers for their good intentions, after all, they were trying to kill "the enemy" and rid the world of evil, and just had a little, well, accident.

And Jesus said, well never mind. Let's move on to pious-sounding words from the other parts of the Bible or from cherished old hymns that are, well, more amenable to our purposes than all that stuff that Jesus taught, which really has no pertinence here. (Tess Tip: you'll save a lot of time by skipping the Gospels altogether when justifying military defense killings, or when sanitizing military offense killings disguised as defense killings. I know all this is rather confusing, but the simple rule of thumb is in these situations is: Don't quote Jesus.)

Think with me for a moment. We need to strategize. What kind of phrase would make this nasty little incident more palatable to the good Christians of America?

For starters, we'll need a good Biblical-sounding word or two. "Evildoers" is usually a winner, but it's been a bit overused of late. How about-hmm-"freedom"? Good, but not quite Biblical enough to cover our.to convey the Christian impulse behind this regrettable incident (Tess Tip: always include the word "regrettable" when families are killed, preferably followed pretty quickly by the word "inevitable"-but don't use "collateral damage", as a lot of folks are starting to see through that one).

Still no ideas? Okay, let's just admit we're stuck for a moment, and go back to the AP story, 12/6/03. That should give us some ideas:

"An American A-10 aircraft struck a site south of Ghazni where a "known terrorist" was believed to be hiding at about 10:30 a.m. Saturday, Army Maj. Christopher E. West told The Associated Press. "Following the attack, ground coalition forces searching the area found the bodies of both the intended target and those of nine children nearby," he said. The U.S. military was sending a team of investigators to the site to determine if U.S. forces were at fault," West said."

Oh icky, that's no good-words like "attack", "bodies", "children", and fault" are to be avoided at all costs. Let's move on to another paragraph:

""We regret the loss of any innocent life and we follow stringent rules of engagement to specifically avoid this type of incident while continuing to target terrorists who threaten the future of Afghanistan," West said."

Much better! Our wording should include something about our dedication to preserving "innocent life", which we should, of course, quickly follow by reminding the reader or listener that, even though we did the killing, there were bad people (including a "known terrorist") out there threatening the very victims that we inadvertently killed.

Hey, are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Now we're getting somewhere. Try this on for size: Those nine were the very children that we were protecting, but, because of the bad people nearby-or, well, somewhere around there-anyway, in that region or that country (is Afghanistan the Middle East?!), oh you know what I mean-we had to drop some bombs. And -and -and they hit that house with the kids in it, and -and -and you see, (oh wait, this is good) if we hadn't done it, the terrorists probably would have, sooner or later! So, voila-We were actually protecting the children, but because the known terrorist wouldn't come out and show him- or herself to our bombers, those poor children got killed instead. The terrorists, you see, killed them, in a manner of speaking.

Only one problem remains, and it's an important one, so let's not stop here. Where can we insert some Biblical wording to ease the conscience of any Bush supporter who might be fond of that troublesome "Christ" part of Christianity (compassion, millstone-around-the-neck for those who hurt children, blessed are the merciful, etc.)? Never fear, a quick look at the speeches of our own very, very Christian President may do the trick:

"They're nothing but a bunch of cold-blooded killers and that's the way we're going to treat them." George W. Bush, talking to soldiers at the largest US military base, Jan. 3, 2003.

OOPS! Never mind that one, strike it from the record please. There MUST be something better, somewhere here in my files, oh, what's this? Let's take a peek:

"I know that the families of our military are praying that all those who serve will return safely and soon. Millions of Americans are praying with you for the safety of your loved ones and for the protection of the innocent." George W. Bush, 3/19/03

"Prayer"! That's the ticket! It's on the cover of dozens of bestsellers-believe me, it's highly persuasive at this time. You see, as long as you link the word "prayer" with any kind of activity, and I do mean ANY kind of activity, it becomes "sanctified", in a sense: If you pray that the President's decisions will be right, then, well, think about it! Whatever decision he subsequently makes will be what? Correct, of course, and Godly, too! You wouldn't want to question God, would you?

That's why The Presidential Prayer Team: is so successful. When you tell citizens to pray for political figures, this gives millions of well-intentioned Christians the subliminal message that, after praying for their President, whatever their President does or does not do is, ipso facto, the will of God Himself. Could you ask for anything more perfectly designed to squelch doubts or questions or pangs of conscience?

Okay, so now let's put it all together to develop our special wording (tactical words are underlined for your convenience): "We regret the loss of any innocent life, and pray that our actions will, in time, help us in our efforts to free the people of Afghanistan and Iraq from the terrorists who threaten their future."

Well we're pretty much finished, but, well, doesn't it lack-sparkle? Don't you think it should end with something that sounds righteous, patriotic, maybe even divinely inspired? Let Tess rummage around once more to see if there's anything fitting.

Here it is! George W. Bush, in his State of the Union address, Jan. 28, 2003: "For so many in our country -- the homeless and the fatherless, the addicted -- the need is great. Yet there is power, wonder-working power in the goodness, and idealism, and faith of the American people"

Ready? Set? Done! Our special wording, presented below, will ease every Bush-supporter's qualms, and even the most ardent Christian's concerns, about those nine little ones who were-well basically, in the wrong place (at home) at the wrong time (when we came a-bombing):

"We regret the loss of any innocent life, and pray that our actions will, in time, free the people of Afghanistan and Iraq (insert other countries as desired), from the terrorists who threaten their future. The people of Afghanistan and Iraq and (insert countries) long for freedom, and we are making the sacrifices to bring that freedom to them and to all the people of that troubled part of the world. We know that we will prevail because there is power, wonder-working power in the goodness and mercy of our troops and the American people."



Hahahahahahahaha... She's funny.


March on Christian soldier, march on.. The kingdom of God is at hand!

 

How about this Tori.. You tell me the big difference between individuals and non living entities/countries full of individuals when it comes to killing/hating/condemning according to the teachings of Jesus.. I never went to church..

Bottom line for me, you condemn them and their religion based on some peoples actions and beliefs, you condemn no one but yourself and your religion, unless you are God. That is the message I get from Jesus, and believe it. Individual to individual, religion to religion, country to country. There is no difference as all I see are individual human beings who sprang hence forth from the same creator as I. Like I said, I never went to church, tell me where I am mistaken, please.

 

I do get it, this is about validating some solid foundation built upon rock that you are better and righter than someone else based on religious beliefs or less reprehensible actions incurred through religious beliefs which is why it's ok to hate and kill them... I'm here to tell you you're wrong.

 

What, killing leaders and converting them to Christianity? She is quite the shock jock..

How the f*ck would he know and who is he decide how every individual should find God. It's quite egotistical if you ask me.. if that's cool.

Hahahaha.. He's a man of God and once a "respectable" Christian soldier..

Just as I believe the majority of muslims really have no desire to conquer the world and subjugate people.

Apparently, a Christian terrorist with bad intentions for the US..

So why try to make the world better from a position of "power"? Jesus is on the way to condemn everyone who doesn't look/think like you..

 

Whoops.. double post. Don't taze me bro! Hahahaha


Let's just use it to say... Whatever the truth as to the creation of humankind, it is the same truth for every human that will ever have existed and it will never be changed by what people think/say/do. The end.

 

uh-oh, best watch that hypocrisy level there wez....

That wasn't you judging and condemning someone for his beliefs, was it?

and you didn't answer where his quote at all incites violence. This is a person sharing his personal religious beliefs, and you jump his case for it- just like you think some are doing here to Islam.

But that isn't the case here. Fundamentalist Islam is wreaking havoc on our world. Yes, I said Fundamentalist Islam. This is the belief system that has the whackjobs that fly planes into buildings, strap bombs to children, and drive explosives into shopping centers. Honestly, wez. I cannot understand why you stand up for a belief system (again, talking Fundamentalist Islam here) that is so violent and deadly. It really makes no sense.

But even with the fundamentalists giving Islam a bad name- the moderate Islam followers aren't doing much better in creating a better name for themselves. Not speaking up against atrocities done in the name of Islam.

That is the point here.

As I proved at the beginning of top of this- we are all hypocrites (gasp! even you,) so lets move beyond that, please, and just focus on the issue at hand:

Fundie Islam wants to take over the world, and they are willing to kill everyone else in it to get what they want- heck, they are even willing to kill themselves to get it. This is bad news, and needs to be addressed- and unfortunately, telling these fundie- Islamics that "You need to play nice with everyone or you will go into timeout!" won't do a thing to curb their violence against others.

I am all for people believe in whatever they want, even if I believe something else, but when those beliefs start causing harm to others- simply because they believe something else- then it needs to be seriously looked at.

 

Huh? What does judge not mean? What was Jesus saying?

No.. That was me asking him/you how the f*ck he would know and who is he to judge everyones method of finding God..

I think this kind of thinking leads to acceptance of violence and/or murder when it is aimed at those who don't follow his road to salvation.

I'm standing up for life and all people and take the stand that it's never ok to kill other people. I don't believe that eddo, I think that's what has been inferred to rally support for invading Iraq. I believe those wackjobs flew planes into buildings because they are tired of the US interfering in their lives and governments. We have been at it since the who knows when.. 50's maybe.

What do we expect when we dispose of leaders and install a puppet like we did in Iran with the Shaw in the 70's? They stormed and kidnapped people at our embassy.. Then we have our nose in the middle of the Iran/Iraq war, Kuwait, Iraq

Osama'a problem was really with his own oppressive government and since we basically keep them in power against the wishes of many of their own people, they sent some wacko's to fly planes into buildings. Not because they want to take over the world and subjugate you. They prolly see that in us, wouldn't you think? Who has the military base in who's country and are conducting wars all over their region and have been everpresent for the last 50 years with fancy killing tools? Think about it..

Like I said before, would you understand them if they did? Apparently some do.. I saw that post of papa's.. I doubt that person is the only one.. So, when we spend decade after decade interferring in others affairs, there could be some consequences. We should learn from our mistakes and let them forge their own future.

It's quite possible that we had a large hand in creating the "fundi's" as what we have done would naturally piss us off if on the other end of our actions and religious people naturally throughout history have always twisted their teachings to have God on their side when they feel the need to kill someone.

That is the point here.

No, we are not all hypocrites.. How can you say that? Then you must think all Christians are condemned.. What does Jesus say will happen to hypocrites? What will their reward be? Or does that just make you feel better for choosing to continuously be one? Not everyone is like you eddo..

Again.. perhaps you might wanna think of their perspective of a constant US presence in their regions and affairs for their entire lives up to this point except for the oldest of their citizens.. Who's trying to take over the world?

I agree, it needs to be looked at, so we need to look at ourselves.. Do you think we may have had a hand in creating this mess or are we just innocent victims? Perhaps you should walk in their sandels for 50 years before you condemn them..

 

Exactly. Like a lot of Americans, I never gave Islam a second thought. It was to each their own. It took 9-11 to open my eyes. These people worship the destruction of themselves and others. This is a big big difference than anything we've experienced.

 

Muslim Rape, Feminist Silence
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine. com | November 1, 2006
"unveiled women who get raped deserve it"

 

Oh, come on. These same people kill burglars, cut the hands off of thieves, and murder homosexuals.

As Texans go, this is Paradise.

 

And have the lowest crime rates in the world on the whole.


I have less issues with their having strict, and even deadly standards in their own Countries, I am sure we have beliefs and laws that shock them, my only real issue in general is how once they have some big numbers, they start pushing the local governments to change enough to allow them to do things that are not acceptable prior to their comming there.

Rioting, raping, running radical, anti-western schools and "camps". They don't want to "fit in" to the societies they move to, they want to take these new places over, with force if neccessary.

 

You should move there.. I bet you'd find most people just want to be left alone and live a happy, safe, relatively comfortable life rather than murder people and take over western society. Prolly appears to many in those regions that someone, us, wants to do to them what you accuse them of doing to you and yours.

 

Like they were understanding with the teacher who let the kids name a teddybear muhamid(sp?)?

Muslime Countries would never allow outside people come in and change their societies the way their doing in western societies.

Everywhere they are getting strong, they are fighting the norms of the society to change it, like the woman asking all non-muslim women to wear veils to avoid being raped by muslim males who migrated into their country.

They are even trying to get parts of sharia law enacted in Canada because in Canada, christians and jews are allowed to have family law run by the churches if they want it, muslims are demanding the same right.

 

"A smiley? A smiley?" WTF?
It seems that if you're a Muslim women you can't be just left alone. If your a women and even if you do cover your face you could be raped, given a smiley and nothing would happen to the men raping her unless there were 4 other men not raping her to testify for her. That doesnt sound like being left alone to me.

 

To be fair, have you ever seen a journalist genuinely and without bias ask a (normal, non-extremist, American) muslim/group of muslims their opinion on this topic?

Or have you ever asked a muslim their opinion on this topic?

I personally haven't read any article where a group of normal, non-extremist muslims have openly supported terrorism. Nobody here has been able to provide a link to one, either.

So as you point out, all you are left with is assumptions.

And because the majority of Westerners are afraid of muslims, you assume the worst.

I understand that it's human nature to feel this way, but that doesn't make it correct.

Have you never heard of the Crusades?

How do you think Christianity started?

 

Anna come on. We're talking about this day and age. No other religion is advocating violence like Islam is. Sure we shouldn't lump them all together. But until we can stop this type of jihad we must be leary of all Muslims. Yes I assume the worst. Just look around you.

 

Actually, I don't want to get into a debate about this. You either understand and agree with me, or you don't, and no amount of effort on my part will change that.

So, to sum up:

Yes, many Muslims around the world are violent. They suicide bomb, they call jihads, etc etc, etc

On the other hand, many Americans (a Christian country) are violent. In their own country they serial kill, they murder one another frequently, they rape and beat women, and a lot of them carry guns, etc, etc, etc

They also like to invade and bomb and take over other countries.

So basically Muslims + Americans = just as bad as eachother.

What it all ever boils down to is a game of "but they started it" or "the WAY they do it is wrong" or "they look different and speak a different language and I don't understand them so even though they want to kill me just like I want to kill them, they must be evil and I must be right".

You hate them, they hate you. Fair's fair.