Muslims and western society

Freedom and Islam
By T. O. Shanavas, M. D., Vice President, Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.

Recently, I read an article, ?Women in Islam? describing the liberation of women by Islam and Prophet (s). In reality women cannot travel alone to Hujj or visit Mecca (the safest place for any one), and women cannot drive a car in Saudi Arabia. It is not a secret that Muslims in general and Muslim women in particular in the world are the least free and least educated. So, I wonder: Oh Islam! You are a great theory but no practical value, unless you live in the West.

After all, only one thing matters in Islam. Faith is a matter of exclusively personal and private experience. We embrace faith individually just as we confront our death individually. An Iranian Muslim philosopher, Souroush, correctly said it that we have communal actions and but not communal faiths. We can express faith in public but the core of the faith is mysteriously private. The preeminence of Islamic faith is for the hereafter where people are judged individually: "Everyone of them will come before Him all alone on the Day of Resurrection. Surely A-Rahman will show love for those who believe and do right." [19:95-96]. There is no Original Sin that transcends over the goodness of whole mankind in Islam. Therefore, the only things that matter on the Day of Judgment are actions at the individual level. Community actions are useless.

Similarly, the Qur?an states: ?Say (Muhammad it is) truth from the Lord of you all. Whosoever will, let him believe and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" (Koran 18: 29) ?And so, [O Prophet,] exhort them; thy task is only to exhort: thou cannot compel them to believe.? (Koran: 21-22). ?O Prophet.!?Thy duty is not more than to deliver the message; and the reckoning is Ours.? (Koran 13:40). These verses teach that a roof made out safety and liberty is an absolute necessity to develop faith in the hearts. These verses demand Muslims to guarantee freedom and safety for all. Therefore, if governments, Imams, enforced Fatwas, demand any public or outward obedience and submission, such outward appearance is not faith. When law, power, force, and tyranny enforce religion, they are taking control of the body not the soul. Unfortunately, many Muslims want to make reign over body the most important tenet of Islam even though the Qur?an rejects their craving for power over body: ?It is not your meat or blood that reach God: It is fealty of your heart that reaches Him? (22:37).

In Muslim-majority nations, people are forced to confess Islamic faith and behave in one voice in religion; but they forget that the rulers cannot fill the heart with genuine faith. I believe that faith chosen freely at the individual level without coercion and without forced conformity is the genuine faith. In a world where the hearts with freely chosen faith, not by forced compliance, pervade, the true religious spirit come alive to establish an ideal society by free choice of the people. This is proven by Muslim history in the first 6 centuries. Muslims helped Jews to create their Golden Age and liberate Christians from tyranny of Roman church. Muslims philosophy and science promoted the Enlightenment and Renaissance of the Europe. We also created the experimental science. In those days, we educated anyone who came our way without force-feeding our faith. Now we have governments that have taken control of our body claiming to send our ?meat and blood? to God while Muslims have to beg from non-Muslim societies for their daily bread to keep their body alive.

Prophet Mohammed struggled to establish a free society. Similarly, Muslims must struggle hard peacefully to establish a free society where no totalitarian government, no Imams, no predominant group control us or decide for us. Everyone is equal. If any one wants to be a believer, let him/her be. If anyone wants to be an apostate let him/her be safe to live the life of an apostate. So-called Islamic government is myth created by power-hungry people to control Muslim mind and body. There was no such thing as Islamic government. Government is only a means to execute the will of people. The individual members of the government can have Islamic values and faith. Prophet Mohammed ruled as a democratically elected ruler following the invitation by the people of Medina. He never forced a decision upon his community even when he believed that majority decision on a particular secular matter was a mistake as happened in the case of the disaster of Uhud war. A minority including him wanted to fortify the Medina and fight the Meccan forces. But he agreed to go along with the wishes of the majority to fight the Koreish in the open instead of from fortified Medina even though the strategy of the majority was wrong in his opinion. So, Islam demands Democracy, not tyranny by ullamahs, kings, self-appointed presidents, and military generals.

The concept of so-called Islamic government is an oxymoron unless it means a government with Islamic values that the community has accepted, not by the opinion or fatawa of an Imam but by totally free discussion in a free press, without coercion and intimidation. Some of the so-called Islamic values that exist in contemporary Muslim society are the values of some Imams that had never grinded through and experienced a free press. The self-righteous terrorists, and oppressive governments among Muslims want to control the ?meat and blood? with the aid of the values of Imams that were not debated in the free society with a free press. However, they neglect the soul that sustains the body. Let democracy rule our bodies with a free press and let the free choice build our faith. Let us get rid of from our thoughts the enforced forms of outward Islam that demand the conformity and control from our ?meat and blood?

The verse 33:5 states: ?There is no sin upon you for what mistakes you commit unintentionally, but there is sin what your hearts have intended.? Unintentional mistakes happen much less if mind is exposed to free press, public opinion, and dialogue with reason as guiding principle. A hadith states "God has not created any thing better than reason." So, any Muslims who oppose a free press and reasoning are committing a sin knowingly because he/she refuses to listen to the merit or demerit of opposing points of view. The Koreish of Mecca rejected Prophet Mohammed because they refused to listen to reasoning. Muslims must reject the Jahilliyah paradigm that pervades in our community and in our mind.

Let Imams and scholars issue fatwas freely without power to enforce over the community. Reject any conformity by force. Reject totalitarianism and kingdoms that want to rule our body. Let the heart and mind fly free to see what is out there. Democracy draws inspiration from the Qur?anic axiom that human being are free. The American constitution reflects it as it states: ?Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press.?

This is candidly stated in verse: ?We sent down the Torah which contains guidance and light?Later, in the train of prophets We sent Jesus, son of Mary, confirming the Torah which has been send down before him, and gave him the Gospel containing guidance and light. ?Unto to you [O Muhammad] this writ (Koran) and a way and a pattern of life, confirming what were revealed before?Unto everyone of you have We appointed a different law and way of life. And if God had so willed He could surely have you all made one single community professing one faith. But He wished to try you and test you. So try to excel in good deeds? (Koran: 5:44-48).

The existence of different kinds of faith and religion competing each other doing good work is the will of God. So, freedom without the enforcement of conformity in religious matters is Islamic. The so-called Islamic governments of the self-righteous violate Qur?anic principles and tyrannize people of all faith including Muslims. Islam will always remain a dream and an excellent theory with no practical value until faith rules the hearts and liberal democracy with a free press rules the bodies. Finally, I thank God for creating America where I do not fear about government taking control of my body and at same time my heart can fly freely to choose my faith.

 

Excellent articles teach...


Government and popular religion stink.

 

Hahahahahahahaha

You ain't better than darkie eddo. Shut the hell up.


Kinda sound like me cept for the better than you part. Why didn't you tell TJ that I was better than him over here? Hahahahahaha


Eddo is a dumbass


Should I be banned for dragging jungle biz all over the www? Hahahahahaha


I agree with BCAR

 

You never were one much for understanding humor.


and I cannot for the life of me understand how that is relevant in this discussion, other than you trying to take a pot shot at me. So much for moving forward, huh?

 

Please stay on topic or take it to the, "Free For All", Forum.

 

They wanted to kill that teacher for naming a teddy bear Mohammad for Christ sakes. That speaks volumes.

 

Very informative article when you read past the first paragraph or two.

 

Those were a few ignorant savages. But if you saw the news clips, very few of them were actually acting like they really wanted to be there - media event (IMO).

 

If your trying to get me to read the whole thing it wont work.

 

It's an awsome article snaf.. worth your time for sure.

 

In contrast to this:

 

Continue...

 

2:216 ?Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not. 217 They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: ?Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be Companions of the Fire and will abide therein.?

2:244 ?Then fight in the cause of God, and know that God heareth and knoweth all things. 245 Who is he that will loan to God a beautiful loan, which God will double unto his credit and multiply many times? It is God that giveth (you) want or plenty, and to Him shall be your return.?

Many of these quotes should be self-evident what the meaning is. Of course they will be some that say that what they mean is not what they read like. Muslim clerics and their apologists are saying ?the command to kill non-Muslims is not for today? it was only for a certain time. Where in the Qur?an does it say this? It does not say or teach the commands to kill the ?infidels?, ?unbelievers? ?Jews? and ?Christians? was only for a previous time. ? Nowhere. why should we accept this rhetoric? There is proof in the Qur'an that it is actually to continue and increase.

No doubt I heard Allah's messenger saying, ?During the last days there will appear some young foolish people, who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will leave the faith) and will go out from their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.? (Bukhari volume 9, no.64)

One of their Hadiths states about their own: Narrated Ikrima: The statement of Allah?s Apostle (Muhammad), ?Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.? (Hadith 9:45; 84.2.57.)

Sura 9:29-33 ?Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled.?

Sura 8:15 ?O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers preparing for battle do not turn your backs to them. [Anyone who does] shall incur the wrath of God, and Hell shall be his home,- an evil dwelling (indeed)!?

Sura 8:57 ?So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson.?

Sura 8:65 ?O Messenger! Rouse the Believers among you to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish two thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are people without understanding.? In other words those who believe not in Allah are not equal to those who do.?

Sura 8:67 ?It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he has made a great slaughter in the land.?

Sura 6:157 ?Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth God's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.? So if you are not a Muslim, how do you think this affects you.

Sura 8:12 ?Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ?I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.?

?Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah. Whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you and you shall not be treated unjustly.?

?Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day? (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).

Sura 9:39 ?If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put others in your place?

9:52 ??Allah will send His punishment from Himself or by our hands.?

The Qur?an teaches: Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home . . . The unbelievers are your sworn enemies . . . Seek out your enemies relentlessly . . . . You shall not plead for traitors . . . Allah does not love the treacherous or the sinful. (Dawood, Koran, pp. 367-68.)

?. . . kill the pagans wherever you may find them . . .?

Sura 4:74: ?Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, - whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a reward of great value.?

Sura 4:95 ?Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.?
Sura 9:14 ?Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.? Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Surah 9:14 at-Taubah 9:14)

Sura 9:78-83 ?Know they not that God doth know their secret (thoughts) and their secret counsels, and that God knoweth well all things unseen? Those who slander such of the believers as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity, as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labor, and throw ridicule on them, God will throw back their ridicule on them: and they shall have a grievous penalty. 80 Whether thou ask for their forgiveness or not, (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness, God will not forgive them: because they have rejected God and His apostle; and God guideth not those who are perversely rebellious. Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the apostle of God: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of God: they said, ?Go not forth in the heat. Say, ?The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat.? If only they could understand! Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do. If, then, God bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: ?Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind.?Sura 4:168: ?Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.?

 

blah blah blah.......

 

I imagine, like the bible, there are many versions of the Quran and different interpertations. People with evil intentions will twist anything to further their agenda. Lots of people twist hate out of the bible too... sick sh*t.

That article Hugo posted seemed to be an intelligent, rationally thinking, follower of the Quran.


What impressed me most, that under it all, he realizes that there is only one true "God" for all people.

 

You know, it wasn't too far back in our societies history that women were considered property. Still practiced by many people. Women have come a long ways but not without a fight.

Least men had the courtesy, for the most part, not to kill them for not wanting to be under the control of might = right/fear = respect lunitics.


Black men got the right to vote in 1870.. 15th amendment.

Women in 1919.. 19th amendment.

Why should the constitution need amending to give equal rights to anyone?

 

I have three seperate english Qurans and there is no real discernable differance between each one.


But.



Translations and what is said is not as important as what is "pushed" by the religious leaders. There are some very harsh stuff in the old testament and even the new has some things some would feel are hostile but as a general rule, Christians have moved past these things and do not follow them as a standard part of their daily faith.


Modern Muslims do still find a martyr as being the highest possition of their faith. They do still preach the agressive parts of their religion even to small children. We see even in places like Canada, a Muslim man still feels it is okay to kill his daughter for not wearing her face covering.


The Quran is broken up into sections like a manual giving instructions for almost any situation. The problem for the world comes when a Muslim feels oppressed. This is why I made the oppressed thread, if a Muslim can "feel" oppressed, then under his faith, he is commanded to strike out at those that are in his mind, oppressing him.

"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." ~ 8:39


"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." ~ 9:5


As I understand it, this command to use "every stratagem of war" is what allows and even commands the use of pure terrorist methods of attacking innocents like children of the oppressors.

"Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah's Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place." ~ 9:38


"The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah's religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah's Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid - these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise)." ~ 8:73

This is why even if a Muslim does not directly get involved in terrorist actions, they still feel pressured to give shelter and aid to those terrorists.



Does this mean every Muslim gives into that pressure?

No, but it is very difficult to resist this pressure considering it is such a powerful part of their religion.

This again goes to my point about what is being preached "now" not what happened in the past.


Trying to condone current actions based on similar actions done in the past by someone else is simply wrong and only makes the situation worse. Under that logic nobody can take action to stop any injustice because we all have negative things in our past.

It was once legal to kill blacks in America, does that mean if you kill one now it is still okay? No, because we have moved past that garbage and while there are still issues here and there, most of the time we all get along until stuff gets stirred up.

It is impossible to move foward if your always looking behind you.

 

See TJ. the difference is, we didn't have a nuclear power telling us to change and killing us to prove it. Every person inside themselves know this sh*t is wrong. Let nature take it's course. We are not god.


Individuals will naturally fight oppression in any way they can, no matter the degree. Accept it in any way big and small, pay the price. One must stand on their own 2 feet.

 

What we have is a war between moderate and fanatical Islam. Our troops in the ME and our unflinching support of Israel gives propaganda material to the fanatics.

 

Indeed.. Pretty firm religious fanatics on both sides in that part of the world. The ground where it all started and according to revelations, will all end. Sadly, prolly true.