Military-Industrial Complex

The term military-industrial complex (MIC) refers to a close and symbiotic relationship between a nation's armed forces, its arms industry, and associated political and commercial interests. In such a system, the military is dependent on industry to supply material and other support, while the defense industry depends on government for a steady revenue stream.

The term is most often used in reference to the United States, where it gained popularity after its use in the farewell address of President Dwight D. Eisenhower. As pejorative terms, the "MIC" or the "iron triangle" refer to an institutionalised collusion among defense contractors (industry), The Pentagon (military), and the United States government (Congress, Executive branch), as a cartel that works against the public interest, and whose motivation is profiteering.

With over 700 military bases in over 130 countries, can anyone really argue that the U.S. isn't a modern imperial power? We may not see ourselves this way but it is the perception of the rest of the world and perception is reality. We haven't fallen over the edge yet but we have a much better view of the abyss from our present position than we have ever had in the past. The question is; What can be done to step back from the edge?

 

I guess it depends on what you call a base. Of the 737 'bases' overseas the vast majority, 699, are small installations/facilities (Communications Facilties, family housing, docks, depots, recreation areas, etc) with fewer than 100 military and/or civilian personnel. Mostly in Germany, Japan, South Korea and the U.K and they have been in existance for decades.

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/20050527_2005BSR.pdf

 

I think we might have already fallen over the edge, but this will only be known in hindsight. About the only way to reverse the situation would be to elect a candidate with a political philosophy that would end it. Interestingly, this isn't a right-left issue or even a democratic-republican one. Chuck Hagel and Ron Paul from the GOP, Dennis Kucinich from the Dems, and even Ralph Nader from the Green/Independent would accomplish this goal of restoring America's traditional non-interventionist foreign policy. But they are basically unelectible in the eyes of an American electorate that is addicted to authority figures and has come to see perpetual warfare as the norm. So we'll probably get Rudy, Hillary, McCain, Gore, Newt or some other internationalist who will continue to support the MIC.

 

Apparently, this Chalmers Johnson guy says in his new book that the process of the U.S. decline has already begun. He says signs such as other countries insisting on being paid in Euros instead of dollars are a prelude to the bankruptcy of the American economy. The debt we owe to other countries at this point is unsustainable and will cause our economy to fall beyond our ability to recover. The rest of the world will also fall but economies such as China, India, Japan, even Russia will recover much more quickly than the U.S.



It sounds like an interesting read. Here is the first chapter. You war advocates might want to pay special attention to this dire warning.

Chapter One: Militarism and the Breakdown of Constitutional Government

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7623461

 

Hong Kong

China caused a bit of a stir with the Hong Kong market diving 9% today, U.S. 3% and Japan 4% for their start of 2/28/2007 .
Net investor loss 100+ Billion $ U.S.

 

Moen,

That chapter is a pretty good statement of the problem.

 

As I read it, I couldn't help thinking about Midas. He has bought into the lies without thinking about what it is he is so zealously advocating. I wonder if he read the book or even the first chapter, would he be able to see the folly of his beliefs? We may never know. :whistle:

 

seriously doubt it.

Also...when it comes to our bases...the odd thing is, in many countries, they dislike us, but they want us to stay. I was in Europe when the US began to scale back military bases in Germany (yes, we ARE scaling back in many areas...probably because of the massive debt of this war that has far reaching effects).

They had a BBC call in show dealing with the closing of a base in Germany. The callers were split as to where they lived...the people who lived in the town that the base was in were livid. They did NOT want the base to close as it would severely damage the economy if not kill the town. People who did NOT live in towns like that were calling in saying 'US get out'.

In the end...the base was closed (or severly cut) and I have read that this has happened in quite a few places...If the bases were being cut or closed, the effect would be great as we would be saving money...the problem is that they are being cut and closed because we are paying hundreds of billions to rebuild and support Iraq (and pretty much 90% of the rest of the world) we even send money to places that are against the US and act against us in the UN...we borrow from peter to pay paul...we cant keep doing this....pay tin pot dictators money because they cant (incompetent) or wont corrupt) support thier people and that money ends up in the wrong pockets.

I remember when the tsunami hit, I saw on the news a guy in the disaster area looking into the camera saying 'were is America'...WHY THE HELL IS HE NOT ASKING WERE HIS OWN LEADERS ARE?!?!?! because they are incompetent and do not care about the people, and people know the US does. Its our weakness...

The way I see it is the US needs serious monetary reform beginning with Fractional Reserve Banking and who we dole out money to.

We need serious cuts in foreign aid, tough love.

I do think there are serious problem in the future if the US doesnt stop thinking it can just allow federal banks to create money out of thin air and flood the economy on a daily basis and not feel the effects...

 

Economic Aid equals Population Boom. Population Boom equals more Economic Aid. It has to stop, right now there are many hundreds of thousands of people living in hostile desert-like conditions and subsiding solely on government rations of one kind or another * see photo. These masses and I mean masses are the result of our governments aid to these impoverished areas with primitive tribal values totally unfamiliar to us.

The result of this: They simply expanded into the inhospitable areas (deserts) after the population boom brought on by western governments lavish economic aid. Many times into an area with no food or water available unless it's provided daily/weekly by other governments, OURS, certainly not theirs. We should include a condom in each humanitarian meal along with an oral contraceptive.

The brown one has a meat (pork, chicken, beef) patty, pork and beans and uses animal fat in the crackers preparation. The yellow one is suitable for those who won't eat the meat or meat products based on religious reasons, jeez... dd: :vanish: These are dropped off by cargo planes on pallets into the huge refugee camps.

 

I think what we seriously need to do is to stop arming the world with our weapons and cut way back on the amount we spend at home on weapons. Our military budget is larger than the rest of the the other countries in the world combined. 40 percent of our military spending is so called "Black funded" which is uncontrolled by the congress' oversight responsiblities in direct violation of their constitutional mandate set forth by the founding fathers as a check against military dictarorships that arise from such practices.

We are slowly losing our republic through the consolidation of power in the executive branch and inching ever closer to a military state that our founders sought to avoid with a number of checks on power that are presently being eroded through a lack of vigilance on the part of an apathetic American electorate. You and I are responsible for this series of events with our lack of awareness and complacency. The very weapons that our tax dollars helped fund and create may be turned on us in the end in a last ditch effort to recover our lost republic. I wonder how much sympathy the rest of the world will have for the demise we suffer after decades arrogance and excess? Not much I'm guessing.

 

I think we should stop arming the world with our giant contributions of free food, economic aid, free weapons, free training, free military intervention, free disaster relief and the like. If they can't do it themselves...pay for it, if they can't afford it...

 

Did you even read the post above before you scribbled this nonsense? Most of the uninformed American public sees us as some great gift giving nation that doles out tons of money, food and disaster aid but the darker side of our involvement in the world is little acknowledged and never talked about in public openly. You indignantly imply that we give so much and take so little when in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Believe what you want to believe. You're part of the problem with no chance of even recognizing the solution even if it bit you in the a**! No offense, but if ignorance is bliss, you must be one happy fellow. :bow:

 

You've got to be the stupidest knob in the cornfield. Cleartext -- I mean your really really really an idiot. Painfully watching your posting habits over the past few months it became evident you are vastly dumber than you suspect you might be. Everyone of your retorts is inflammatory, insulting, absurd, and virtually incorrect. The Wikipedia definition of Troll fits perfectly in your case. Please wait a couple of days to respond so when you do spew more stupidity into the thread it will be diluted with time. On the other hand please respond ASAP so we can get more laughs from the "See Spot Run" vocabulary you wield so deftly. :mouth: :mouth: :mouth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll Group, DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

 

I have to agree...I posted a list earlier in another thread of all the countries...even the ones who are against us in the world theater...that we dump money into...and contrary to what moen says, we get nothing in return from a large portion of them.
America is damned if we do and damned if we dont and there will always be people pointing at us saying 'they only do it for their own benefit'...as our national debt rises and our currency continue to be devalued (all the better from the UK though)

for one...what country DOESNT do things that wont somehow benefit themselves? Most countries take and dont give so it isnt even an issue...they ONLY do for themselves, seldom more than for the leaders themselves, the rest are left to lift in standards far lower than in the US (a middle class person in the congo would improve his lot is he moved into the projects in america)...they dont do anything for any other nation, even their own people...for ANY reason.

When people look up into a camera during a disaster and ask 'where is america' and not 'where is my own countries government' because we dont have billions in aid there in a day, because we somehow are responsible for the worlds needy, I think of that as a testament to America...and the greatness of this country.

They are not asking where their own government is because they KNOW their own government is incompetent and corrupt. They KNOW who WILL come to their aid and they have grow to expect it...and seldom do we fail to do so...for whatever reason WE support the people of Senegal, its own government does do anything at all. What are we getting from Senegal when we send them a years worth of food?

Now when we spend 2,000,000 dollars in the Congo to feed people, I DO wonder what it is that the Congo is giving us but I am sure paying close to a trillion in foreign aid to countries like Madagascar benefits us greatly somehow It certainly isnt benefiting us in the UN as most of the top 10 recipients of our aid hardly champion us more than 50% of the time...

Maybe we should cut off money, maybe we should stop sending military contracts, and business contracts out...maybe we should see what a great place this world would be with our the American tax payers teat to suckle

 

nevermind

 

For someone with a total of two posts in this forum, you sure take the liberty of telling me when I should and shouldn't post pretty seriously. Since you had no specfic objection to anything I've written, I'd have to conclude that your intent was nothing but inflammatory gibberish. We all know how to use Wiki already but thanks for the advice. If you really have been reading my posts for months, you'd have to be an idiot to attack me as my response is going to require you to think just a bit and I don't imagine you are up to the task if this is any indication of your debate skills. And, Oh please, shower us with more quotes from that last book you read. :mouth:

 

We do far more harm than good but like most Americans, the bad is ignored. Handing out large amounts of weapons brings suffereing and misery to third world countries that no amount of U.S. dollars is ever going to alleviate. It is difficult if not impossible for most of the citizens of this country to see the impact our forenign policy has on the rest of the world. We tend to hype the good while ignoring the bad. We are an imperial power on par with Imperial Japan in the 30's, the later years of the Roman empire, and not all that different from Nazi germany of the 1930's. Imperialism takes many forms but the main indications are always the same. Expansionism, wars of choice not necessity, preemptive aggression, consolidation of military power at the highest levels of government, civil rights curtailment, and large standing armies. Any of this sound familar to you?

I don't expect to convince any of you this is already happening. Most do not see the approach of the final days and even enthusiastically welcome tighter control over civil society and a marked decrease in personal liberty in exchange for the promise of security. It's almost cowardly if you think about it but not entirely unexpected or unusual. It's probably in our very nature to act in this manner as we have done so many times in the past. Look around next time you get in your car and count the number of colored magnetic ribbons you see on the backs of the cars around you with patriotic slogans. That is the extent of the average Americans involvement in this issue. We are primarily a country of overfed lemmings. Who will bother to shed a tear over our downfall?

 

Oh to be as wise as you...You so constantly fall into the errant belief that if people do not see the wisdom of your words (that are always right) and follow your way of thinking (which WOULDNT make us lemmings but just rcorrect), they are somehow stupid, blind or brainwashed...it cant be that maybe its YOU that is over stating, not seeing a certain view, or simply blinded to something...I have to admire your attempts at teaching us the 'truth'.

I have been all around the world from the middle east, africa, and south america but I am just a lemming. How could we not see all the bad the US does with people like yourself constantly reminding us and you see it so clearly Certainly the US (or the west) is the cause of all the ill in this world...what an evil force we are...certainly no blame lays at the hands of the dictator that kills and starves his own people and does little to actually govern, it can be traced back to the US somehow...what can we do to fix it!! when will it actually be the governments of these **** poor nations that must take the blame for the awful situations in their own countries??.

I have never said the US is perfect, I know full well we have many faults and have often pointed them out so I couldnt fairly be painted as a person who is blinded to the faults of western society and america but the odd thing is there are SO MANY awful dictators and governments that care nothing for their own people, either ignoring their plight all together if not exacerbating them let alone giving a crud about anyone else in the world yet you still find time to make the US the #1 problem in this world with only dubious intent.

One thing I think that makes america so great is you can live here in a nation that has one of the highest living standards in the world, take advantage of all that this country has to offer and STILL spew one sided hatred toward the very nation that offers this to you...now that is freedom...try to do it in the congo or the middle east, you would never be heard from again...because contrary to what you might think, the US probably values life for more than most of the crap holes I have been in this world save maybe parts of Europe. I thank god every time I return from the middle east or africa that I have the US to come back to...with all our flaws...in may way we got it so very right...

I am with you though...lets stop messing with other nations, lets stop being both the policeman of the world and the care giver of the world...we will be bashed even more then but at least they can stop blaming us for everything regardless of what we do and take responsibility for their own actions...I feel like you are blaming others for not seeing the ills, you are not giving the US credit for a lot of good we have done...

 

Geralde61,

Can you explain to the group how your post is connected in any way with the discussion about the MIC?

There are many forums on the internet where posters continuously flame each other with no real content and believe that they are somehow having a discussion. This generally isn't one of them. So try to bring your contributions up to the standard of the forum before critizing others. Also, keep in mind that most of these posts are written on-the-fly and submitted unedited, so vocabulary and grammer are considered less important than they would be in an academic setting. Your own vocabulary mistakes in your post should be evidence enough to convince you [e.g., using everyone instead of every one].

Otherwise, welcome to the fourm.

 

Drus, I think you are taking this a little too personally. Maybe it's just the difficulty of responding to one person and getting a reply from someone else that is twisting this conversation. I never called anyone blind, stupid or brainwashed in this thread. I did say that gerald must be an idiot to attack me but that was after one post where I was called stupid twice and dumb and an idiot in one paragraph. I think my response was measured.

I must have touched one of your nerves with this topic to illicit such a sarcastic response from you. Maybe instead of attacking me personally, you might tell me which opinions you disagree with. I always respect what you have to say on these types of issues and would welcome your thoughts.

I have certainly never blamed the U.S. for ALL the worlds problems in any thread. The U.S. has brought marvelous innovations and inspired many people around the globe to better themselves and reach for the stars in countless pursuits but that isn't the whole story. It is just that paradigm that makes the nasty things our leaders do in our name that much more painful. The American people are so generous, accepting and gracious with their wealth and prosperity like no other people in history and we like to see ourselves as such even while our leaders commit crimes against humanity in our name. The brutality and indifference of other regimes shouldn't be the measure of our goodness. The measure of our goodness should be the standard the rest of the world aspires to achieve. Have you traveled around the world recently? Or just sometime in the past as a military grunt? We are not loved out there these days and if you believe we are, take a trip to any of the places you've already been to and do us a favor. Wear an American flag shirt and see how much love is heaped on you.

Again, they should not set the standard by which we measure our own goodness. America is not the number 1 problem in the world but our bankrupt foreign policy is easily in the running for top honors. If you like the foreign policy of this country as it has been wielded since WWII, please highlight all of our foreign policy successes since that time.

You continually use the lowest standard to rationalize our flaws. What, until we are as bad as some of these backwater hell holes there shouldn't be any criticism of our country? That seems like a recipe for getting there pretty quickly and I for one would like to avoid that outcome.

The good we have done certainly speaks for itself. Our best ambassator to the world is our caring and giving people. Our worst and most hated emissary is our misguided foreign policy. It is not in the best interest on the people it purports to represent. That is all I am trying to say in this thread.