Lower Taxes = More Federal Tax Revenue

Let me clarify your statement for you. What you meant to say is that you can't think of any other way for US companies to compete other than accept Hillary's plan. This does not mean there aren't other perfectly good solutions that also happen to be constitutional. Keep in mind that there are several other auto manufacturers building cars in the US, and doing it profitably, without the US government paying for healthcare and playing on the same field as GM. So don't go confusing bad corporate and union management with some sort of imaginary national problem that can only be overcome [as usual] by giving more authority to the government.

Let me throw in another lesson. Americans have been taught that the solutions proposed by one of the two major political parties are the only possible solutions that exist [while in reality there are usually several]. American's are also taught that the way things are is the only way they could possibly be without catastrophic consequences. This permits the two major political parties to effectively control the government [permanently], set the boundaries for the debates on domestic and foreign policy, and immediately discredit any third party candidates or solutions that are proposed. It's all part of the game.

 

Name one US carmaker who is not being crushed by healthcare. Ford just closed 14 plants!! and Crysler is German, Toyota has plants here but their cars are about 55% overseas built whereas GM is 15% overseas.


All Us labor oriented businesses are being CRUSHED by health care, have you noticed your copay go up and benefits cut (everyone has).
Hillary had GREAT ideas for healthcare as did Kerry but those ideas were killed and American industry is going with them.

 

And yet where do most non-Americans who can afford it come to for medical treatment? The United States. They don't stay home with the nationalized health care systems Senators Clinton and Kerry favor. They come here. Our system is more expensive, sure, but you get what you pay for. Could our system be better? Absolutely. Do we want to do it Clinton and Kerry's way? No.

 

Danr, you've displayed your own psycological problem with the issue by the way you've framed the question. Both US car manufacturers have the same problem you describe, through their own fault. Many foreign car manufacturers operate in the US under the same legal system, hiring from the same labor pool, offering health care and retirement plans, and making a profit -- basically playing and winning on the same field.

What you lack is an understanding of basic economics. To a socialist, it is never impossible to extract more capital out of a business or industry than the industry can earn -- just push the burden onto the taxpayer so that the walking dead companies can continue to suck resources out of the nation. I'm perfectly capable and willing to pay for my own health care co-payments. Don't ask me to agree to pay for yours if you are an autoworker in an organization with brain-dead management and union reps running the show.

Now comes the fun part. There is a solution to the GM and Ford problem [well, there's more than one but this one is my favorite]. Some folks have discussed it, but it is unacceptable to either the republican or democratic leadership. It isn't new. it's been used before. It doesn't cost the taxpayer any money. It's constitutional. I'm not going to bother describing it to a closed-minded audience. You could find it if you had the desire, but you don't. Anyway, you can at least take comfort in the fact that your socialist friends are gaining ground each year. My forecast is that they will eventually come to dominate US politics and economics, and 50 years from now the USA will look a lot like eastern Europe in the 1970s.

 

Followup - no, the answer isn't bankruptcy.

 

Well, what about Dimler/Chrysler ( every bit as much American as it is German) Back in 1998 there was a merger that cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $36 billion dollars. Two divisions were formed, the German and the American (Chrysler maker of Chryslers, Dodge and Jeep). For the last six years the American divison has reported a net gain of +7% for each year. Not bad when you stop and consider that with this profit they have bought stock in such companies as Mitsubishi Motors as well as Hyundi. They have expanded their holdinds each of the last 5 years. Not bad for a company that Danr would have us believe is going out of business any day. Could it be that this is what you get when you have good products and management. Chrysler was voted one of the top 10 best places to work here in the US. Does this tell you anything Danr?

When it's all said and done, it just make you stop and wonder just what the Spendocrats are up to this time.

 

DC use a smaller % of American labor (they break it down - what percent is each car American made), GM and Ford were the ones who stuck by American workers and they got royally scr*wed for it.

 

Danr, you're trapped in the 20th century. Every year the rest of the world will move further away from your obsolete little island. Change obviously frightens you. You can't adapt. Are you still lighting vigil candles for Penn Central? With a little government assistance, the USA could still have had a dominant position in the buggy whip market. Still cursing Ronald Reagan for destroying a perfectly healthy Soviet economy?

You're drifting out of sight now Danr. Just a speck on the horizon of the millenium now. Bye Danr! Good luck in the past!

 

Cloudsweeper...have to give you a lot of credit. You follow the Constitution and the intentions of the framers of this great country. All things being said, I probably agree with you more than not.

I am still trying to ascertain how lower marginal rates produce more interest income for the government, but that is another discussion I suppose

But, I am glad you side with the framers of this country instead of those that want to force the United States to operate like a european socialist country.

 

So you are opposed to gov't help in the healthcare area?

That position is shunned by the rest of the world. Please name a few first world nations where the gov't does not help with healthcare (none come to mind for me). It looks like you are the one with the buggywhip mentality here.

 

Gee whiz Danr, the 'Detroit Free Press' just ran a story related to Ford Motor Company in which it was stated that Ford had already invested some $9.2 Billion dollars in Mexico, where they intended to shift more operations. Between 2004 and 2006 Ford Motor Co.'s Mexican facilities produced 280,000 vehicles for sale north of the border. By next year at this time they will have built and shifted a major portion of their engine and transmission assembly for Ford trucks to Mexaco.

If you don't believe me, just go down to any Ford Dealer and ask to see where the parts came from on any of his Ford products. Living in Arizona, you probably still have some toco sauce on the seat covers when the car is delivered. Yep, ford sure is looking after their employees, but you forgot to say which side of the border they were on. Same, shame!

 

Danr, the USA is unique among nations. It was founded as an experiment in liberty and limited government during an age of monarchs. You are correct that there aren't any other nations quite like it, and most of the business and political leaders of the world will be more than happy when the experiment is brought to a close, including most of the leadership in our own republican and democratic parties. There's big money to be made by the new ruling class once this is accomplished. One of the methods for accomplishing this is to terrify people by screwing up the health care insurance system so badly that people will either be bankrupted by the attempt to stay healthy, or submit to the economic tyranny found in most other nations. Call it 21st century feudalism. Somehow, you [and others] never ask why it used to be possible for the average person to easily afford the most advanced medical treatments of the times, but now can't even afford to go to the dentist. You don't seem to care about identifying the source of the problem, but are perfectly willing to run blindly into a government health care rationing system in order not to have to think about it. You seem to cry out, "Please, please take care of me Mr. Government! I'll do anything you say. You can have anything you want. Just please don't make me responsible for these hard decisions in life."

So you are correct that I have a very old-fashioned mentality about this. I value the principles upon which the nation was founded, and I have no respect for those who are trying to destroy them.

 

Perfect closing statement...perfect!

 

They MUST go to Mexico or die, (DUH) that is my point.

 

(DUH) And my point is that they sure support the American worker, like you said!(DUH)

 

Oh My! This has certainly gotten ugly. Continue on gentleman. encil:

 

They stayed in America as long as they could, this health care thing killed off those plants. I work a bit with providing benefits and I will tell you IT HAS GONE THROUGH THE ROOF.

 

To pay for that government assisted (provided) health care in Europe, the health care payments no longer go through the roof, but taxes do. Which is worse? Either way, it's still a lot of money out of John Q. Public's pocket. At least here we have high quality health care.

 

Just because you are an insurance salesman, doesn't equate to the Ford Motor Co. provide for its employees any better than any one else. It's just that maybe Ford was the only one to buy your cheap insurance and you call that as you see it!

 

Americans currently pay more for persp drugs than any other nation
same for most medical proceedures and care in general. We are paying twice what they pay in most nations, we are being scr*wed. This profit-free-market philosophy works in some fields (like commodities) but not healthcare.