Jesse Ventura on Waterboarding....

....and other stuff as he touches upon marijuana as well.



So what do you all think? He certainly doesn't pull any punches and he HAS been through it.
I may get a better idea of what it's like sometime in the future as the "kid" next door will be leaving for SEALS training in June. A big kid, well mannered and always been a good neighbor Just hope he knows what he's getting into. Either way I applaud him.

I heard Ventura last week on Mancow Mueller's show (unfortunately I'm subjected to this rubbish at work). Mancow and his sidekick Cassidy are now being "voted upon" it seems as to which one will be waterboarded.
Mancow tried to talk over Ventura as it were and nothing happening there. He asked if Ventura would do the honors. Ventura's been through it and said hell no and you should get it done by a professional and have medical support on hand.

Now for those not familiar with Mancow he blew into Chicago as a "shock jock". Never did like him as we already had a few with brains and wit.
Now he's a self professed Libertarian. I don't believe that for a minute - he tends to follow Rush's script and I wouldn't call Rush a Libertarion - would you?

Here's my main problem with the whole scenario. Waterboarding is being treated as a joke, a publicity stunt. Would you do it? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I hope Mancow wins the "contest". I hope he actually goes through with it. I hope he suffers terribly but recovers from his publicity stunt.
You know what I'd really like to see though? The whole thing broadcast live on national TV.

I doubt any of this will happen though. The liabilities are too great for those involved in the waterboarding. Mancow talks "tough" and knows this in the back of his mind.

In the past a few Chicago "shock jocks" had things done to them on air. Things that ANYONE would undergo if they chose. Steve Dahl had a male vasectomy and Danny Bonnaducci had his butt tattood. Those are both considered legal.

I'd love to see him undergo "advanced interrogation". I doubt it will happen though.

 

My Hat's off to Mancow

As much as I don't care for the guy my hat is off to Eric "Mancow" Mueller.

He went through with waterboarding. Seems he didn't like it. I heard the whole thing on the radio today at work.

Talk about timing. We had a younger gentleman in the store at the time. Just so happens he's heading back to the mideast, Afghanastan this time, and been through SERE's training. He hadn't heard what Mancow was planning.
He told us his worst experienences in training were sleep deprivation and waterboarding. He told us Mancow was nuts for doing it.

Well, here's the vid.

 

Interesting. First off...no way in hell would I do it. Just get that out of the way now. I have no doubts it is quite terrible.

But I gotta say that seeing it done was much more anti-climactic than I thought it would be. What did the guy say....most people can't handle it for more than 14 seconds? Horrific for the person, I am sure but it isn't on the scale of breaking on the wheel or the rack or even beatings but it looks like it may be worse than sleep deprivation and stress positions.

It seems like one big problem with it is that you would have to really wonder about the information you got from it if it is that bad to go through. What did that one guy get...130 times or something. After the first time or two, he'd probably tell you up is down and down is sideways if he thought that was what you wanted to hear and it might give him at least a little time before having it done again.

Interesting.

 

SJ,

I'm glad someone finally replied to this thread and I think you have nailed it.

It was anti-climatic but obviously not pleasant. 14 seconds was the "average" time quoted as well.

I think it's rather obvious I'm against this. No it's not the "wheel" or the "rack" or any other insane torture people have come up with but it IS torture. "Enhanced interrogation" my a$$.

What Mancow went through was a subdued version I'm sure. After all it was a "stunt" and he's not being interogated. I do think the "we'll go on the count of five and I lied" part of the process was more realistic as to what would actually happen. Caught him off guard and he lasted about 6-7 seconds.

Subject me to something like this and I'd tell you damn near anythhing you wanted to hear. Whether or not it was true.
Now sure, soldiers and terrorists are tougher but just how many times could one go through that? Even those that have been trained to resist?

Torture is torture. It happens. When Americans start to think that stooping to this level is acceptable it's a sad day.
Really, what would be the next "acceptable" form?

 

did we or did we not stop another terror attack on los angeles by doing this....

i wonder what is worse, waterboarding or getting your head sawed off

answer the question.......did we or did we not stop another terror attack on los angeles by doing this.........

i wonder if the thousands of mothers and fathers, sons and daughters of potential victims in la thought that this was was too mean to do to the planner of 9-11.........

perhaps we should coddle the terrorists instead.......council them with therapy maybe, understand them more, try to relate to them......apologise to them for our american ways and values

when you lay down with dogs, folks, you wake up with fleas. this does not happen to innocent civilians folks, but captured high value terror suspects intent on killing us and everything we stand for

clembo, yeah it's bad bud, i agree.....war is ugly. id rather see some terrorist waterboarded than to see a terror attack on our soil again tho. anyday.

sorry, thats just me, im wierd like that. id rather see a terrorist waterboarded than another 3000 people in los angeles die, go figure.

 

This is a subject that I am very torn over, I hate to have to say this that while I find the whole idea of torture abhorant I can still see why it might be used. I am not trying to sit on the fence here guy's I just can not decide one way or the other. Do the Ends justify the means and were do we draw the line? Is it ok to use waterboarding , white noise, sleep depravation and if so who says who it should be used on?
Now I have to say it was fun to watch him (Jesse Ventura) chat with Elisabeth Hasselbeck on the subject

 

.

 

i do need to clarify this......

this rant is in no way directed at clembo, a friend of mine, but rather the folks on the youtube videos that i watched on waterboarding......the comments i read were very troubling at best

i cannot freakin understand some of these america haters

 

In my 26 Years in the Armed Forces I've been to countries that just cut your head off and ask questions later. In some countries I watched local police steal from frightened shop owners. The water torture was nothing compared to what many other countries are doing.

Being military police my boss was the head of security in the Guntanamo bay Air prisioner transfers. For Security reasons he viewed the files on prisioners. He said there were some real bad people there. And what did we do? We let them all go.

I really don't know what the liberals price is, but 2500 deaths on September 11th was obviously not enough.

In 2002 one of our squads deployed to "the sandbox" because of red tape they couldn't even load their weapons. Isn't that the reason all those US Marines died in Beirut in 1983?

Just my 2 Cents.

 

Do I really care if some terrorist leader gets water boarded? If I am honest with myself, I think I have to say no, I don't. And I tend to think that sometimes extraordinary measures are needed. However, they should not be casually used.

But, as much as I love my country and want it protected, I do not trust government - and that applies no matter what party is in power. Now, I am not talking crazy, tin foil hat, Bush cause Katrina, Katsdung, conspiracy theory distrust. I am saying that the powers the government has are scary and I don't automatically trust that they use them properly or wisely or that they even think country first when using that power.

And I think anything that smells of torture is definitely a power that I am apprehensive about letting them wield with impunity, under the table, just because the President says so.

 

The discomfort of a suspected terrorist is of no concern to me whatsoever..we should do everything possible to extract information & save US lives.

 

I have to ask were do you draw the line in what you are willing to do in the name of protecting Democracy? Harry says he has been to countries that do a lot worse, now I know that is true there are countries that do so, but should we emulate them?
Is it ok to use electricity to a persons genitalia, or cigaretts or blow torch? how about torturing someones family in front of them to gain information? We are happy to condem other nations for using such methods so should we lower our standards to there level?
Who decides who is a terrorist suspect? do we leave it to the police, the Army, the Inteligence services (If so which one) how about to the politicians!
Do we train our people in the art of torture!! or do we hire mercenries to do it for us and then what do we do with them if we have a change of political structure.
Just a few questions guy's

 

I feel I could have posted this statement and it's a big reason I'm against it.
Where do we draw the line? Who's in charge? How accurate are the "results" that we are being fed by them? By them I mean those "in charge" that relay the "results" to us as a country.
This is different than what are the subjects of waterboarding telling us and how much is really true?
Too many questions and too many grey areas for me to be comfortable with it. Are any others but Muslims being waterboarded?
If "those in charge" suspect an American of being the next "McVeigh" do we waterboard him? Look at all the innocent lives that could be spared IF it worked and IF it was right.
What if that "suspect" is Canadian? Russian? Chinese? and we're wrong. Would their governments have a right to be a bit upset?

Yes, I know we are dealing with some terrible people here and they come from lands that will do terrible things in a heartbeat but if we convince ourselves it's okay to "fight fire with fire" are we really any better for it?
If we DO convince ourselves of this why not let the theory "trickle down" for more safety? I know, horrible pun but fitting to me. We're skating on thin ice here.

For starters Jack let it be known I take no offense to what you've said. I know it wasn't aimed at me. People on Youtube tend to be pretty damn stupid when one get's down to it. Please keep this in mind because my response is most certainly NOT aimed at you but something for folks here to chew on.

Now answering the question. Well, it goes back to what I typed after DeOrc. WAS it effective and WAS it "reported" honestly? There seems to be a glitch in when the one that "spilled the beans" did so and when waterboarding was in use. We may never honestly know - getting into the politics thing again but the question is certainly there.

As for laying down with the dogs you get fleas. Yup that happens. Now if you start acting like the dog might one become the dog?

So I'm going to put forward a far fetched scenario - or is it? Obama is digging into this. Of course he is, it's politically correct.
Now let's say "the Messiah" decides "hey we could really use this" and the next thing you know it's legal.
Then someone tosses in a bill that "since it works on terrorists why not corporate America?". Why not suspected child molestors? Why not suspected serial killers?
After all, the numbers add up over time to more than what happened in 9/11 and it's by our OWN people. Would any of these suspects be considered "nice" people?
No as after all they traumatize families, destroy lives and cost lives. "Mini terrorists" as it were.

Far fetched? Yes. Have things like this happened in past history? Perhaps not in U.S. history but I certainly believe it has in many other countries.

Scary stuff to me.

 

The problem is ; once you take that road, you cant go back. I dont buy that ''other countries are doing worse.'' bull. thats a cop out. And I dont buy that ''it saves lives!'' stuff either. The ends dont justify the means. EVER! If we cannot fight enemies, real or perceived, with all that this country brags about, then we dont deserve victory. I thought all my life that America always takes the high road. That we dont stoop to THAT level. Once you get in the dirt its hard to get clean. As far as toture saved lives in L.A.. Wheres that proof? Anyone can type up some documents stating that that actually happened. Didnt Enron show its share holders they were doing great?

 

One of the reasons September 11th happened were the restrictions that were in place regarding Who and how the FBI and CIA could operate. I'm not condoning torture, however dripping water on someone or playing loud music does not equate to torture in my opinion.

If we continue to place restrictions on our Defense and Intel agencies we are in essence tying one hand behind their back.

How should the terror suspects be Interrogated then? Send them to Red Lobster for dinner?

America used to take the high road a long time ago, but not anymore thanks to the press and liberals. Maybe some of the gitmo prisoners they set free will move into your neighborhood.

 

''America used to take the high road a long time ago, but not anymore thanks to the press and liberals.'' That is the saddest thing I ever read. Whats he gonna do; blow up my mailbox? No bad people live in your town or state? Is it crime free? Youre just reacting without thinking. Thats always a mistake. Theyre not going to be set free are they? Theyre going to be sent to maximum security prisons,right? And maybe some of those detained are innocent of whatever they are suspected of. I mean cant the US government make a mistake? America still wants to take the high road. Its irrational people that want to drag it down. I would think that the press and liberals would want to see that high road taken. Not the other way around. Please explain that statement.

 

Thanks to the press and Liberals. Gotta be one of the more ridiculous statements I've heard in some time. Thanks Harryj.

A little history here for you on PRWE. I'm somewhat of a Liberal. Craiga and I generally get along. At times we don't. If you have been reading past threads you'll see a lot of us get along to an extent but don't agree. Craigs response to you is right on though.

No crime in your neighborhood Harry? No crime in your town? Is it because media and Liberals don't exist there? Do you really think Gitmo prisoners are going to be put on to the streets of YOUR town or anyone elses?
Hey, I know this country is screwed up but do you, for a second, actually believe that?

Talk about media. If you believe all of this you've been sucked in by it.
You're not in the forces anymore it seems. Start thinking for yourself.

 

''America used to take the high road a long time ago, but not anymore thanks to the press and liberals.'' That is the saddest thing I ever read. Whats he gonna do; blow up my mailbox? No bad people live in your town or state? Is it crime free? Youre just reacting without thinking. Thats always a mistake. Theyre not going to be set free are they? Theyre going to be sent to maximum security prisons,right? And maybe some of those detained are innocent of whatever they are suspected of. I mean cant the US government make a mistake? America still wants to take the high road. Its irrational people that want to drag it down. I would think that the press and liberals would want to see that high road taken. Not the other way around. Please explain that statement.


I never react without thinking.

Not sure how old you are but did you ever hear Americans questioning dripping water on peoples heads 10 or twenty years ago? You didn't period. The facts are is that the high road America used to do much worse 10 or twenty years ago. Did you ever read about dripping water 20 years ago? No you didn't, and there were much less restrictions then now.


As far as the justice system goes, yes there are isolated incidents where innocent people may become incarcerated, however they are far and few between. In fact the way our justice system operates, to protect the innocent some of the guilty may not be convicted. I have 26 years Law enforcement experience, do you?

I reside 1.5 hours from NYC and due to my profession had to witness the devastation of the 9/11 attacks. 2500 people dead. When do we say enough's enough? What's the liberals cutoff before we attack terrorism aggressively? Obviously its more than 2500 lives.

 

26 years in the military. 26 years in law enforcement. Wow! I too was in law enforcement. But I never acted as judge jury and executioner. Ever. A lot of guys did. And you are right. 20 years ago you didnt hear about the torture. And that was fine with me. But we do hear about it now; and it is disgraceful. So lets not pretend it isnt a big deal. If most americans think its horrific, what do you think the world thinks of us?

 

26 years in the military. 26 years in law enforcement. Wow! I too was in law enforcement. But I never acted as judge jury and executioner. Ever. A lot of guys did. And you are right. 20 years ago you didnt hear about the torture. And that was fine with me. But we do hear about it now; and it is disgraceful. So lets not pretend it isnt a big deal. If most americans think its horrific, what do you think the world thinks of us?

Thanks's, thats great you served in Law Enforcement kudo's to you, in what capacity did you serve?

This forum isn't designed for judging people, its designed for expressing your pollitical views as we all maintain that right. My personal thoughts make me a judge, jury, and executioner?

I have been to countries where the statements posted here would get your head cut off. Have you ever been outside the US? Have you ever recieved a terrorist briefing. Have you ever seen the devastation of terrorism?


Have you ever been to the middle east? or Europe or Asia or Central America?