Hamas vs Fatah

It's difficult for a European American from a Judaeo-Christian based nation (not in Europe) which is only 230 years old to fully understand the individual who's roots and tradition's go back thousands of 'unbroken' years, the Israli.

The Israeli's DO have a legitimate claim to an old/new country with virtually the same Judaeo-Christian values the USA has. A smaller band of fighters fought for their homeland in grand fashion against a force comprised of seven armies for only six days in 1967, effectively reducing their opposition into a disorganized band of nomads. Hamas, Fatah, and Hizbalah are what they're facing now and they (Israel) will prevail. Not bad, not bad at all...

Yes the US is helping by sending arms, arms which are being paid for. I ask, where would our country be if the French hadn't stepped in when we needed them most?

Take Care & Merry Christmas
Ben

 

The French were already at war with the British so it was a self-serving act of friendship. Seldom is there any other type of assistance offered in the world that doesn't also serve one's own national interests. Sad fact but at least they were honest about their situation unlike our claims of bringing democracy to a people that don't have any concept or history of it and don't want us on their "holy" land anyway.

The claims and counter-claims for the dirt and sand in the Middle East go back thousands of years. More blood has been shed over this crappy piece of real estate than any other chunk of rock on the planet. Maybe we ought to just end the squabble and irradiate the whole area for the next 10,000 years and see what those left come up with to fight over next. I'm sure they're up to the challenge.

"Helping" other people to kill their enemies is no way to solve a problem. That is all we are talking about here. We should not be arming the Israelis nor the Muslims yet that is what we will continue to do for the foreseeable future. No one in this conflict is really interested in peace...just power and power is only gained with the barrel of a gun. Peace happens when people put down the guns and talk to each other. I don't see a lot of the latter going on.

 

Everyone is from somewhere...my ancestors come from Ireland, but I am American now. History has little to do with either sides claim and if Jews in America split loyalties and still hold on to where they come from, thats fine, just dont drag America and 100+ billions of our tax dollars with it.

When an Americans pays taxes it gets split 4 ways...1. Israel 2. Iraq 3. other nations we support 4. US. For a country that is trillions of dollars in deficit we sure do give out a lot of money to fight other peoples battles.

It doesnt matter a wit to me if there is judeo-christian (lets call it what it is, judeo) society in the middle east...not one bit.

The Zionist have been attempting to expel and keep a perpetual under class in the Palestinians since long before the western powers stepped in and gave this area to them after holding it as a colony, the Arabs do not have the support of the worlds superpower dumping billion in their laps so they are the underdog. The Zionist would kill every last Palestinian if the thought they could get away with it, the Arabs would kill every last Jew...they are both guilty and whether it is a suicide bomb that kills a Jewish family or a US bomb that kills a Palestinian family, it doesnt matter because the CURRENT situation is that both live there, and there needs to be an end to the hate (I dont see it)

If history was driving factors then Indians would be justified in any brutal act they took to drive whites from their land today (they might have even done so if we hadn’t all but committed genocide on them)...but its a different time and although they were here long before us, it is THEY who live in reservations and WE who occupy the majority of the land and if it is simply who kills who the best, the Palestinians are as justified as the Jews in doing anything and everything in their power to kill the other side.

Me, I dont support either side (nor do I hate either side) as it is clear as day that this is a case of 2 ethnic (religious) groups that hate each other and refuse to live together and make peace and the US has better things to do with our tax dollars then to support either side.

 

I posted the Karankawa info and link hoping to stir a little digging on your part into the "Occupation" of the Texas Gulf Coast by the residents of the area, Hunt County included. Being a 6th generation native of Texas I'm painfully aware of the "crimes of the past" so to speak. You must remember hypoocracy starts at home.

Personally I always associated the term "Zionist" as a derogatory one. When used in the context being used here.

Take Care & Merry Christmas
Ben

 

You guys, Alaska wrongely and criminally sold to USA by opportunist in Tsar court. So now Vladimir Zhirinovskyi says Russia must take Alaska back as legal possession of Russian Federation. While in business of claiming old lands, we want also N. California where Russia have Kremlin north of San Francisco bay until 1840's.

Think Vladimir Putin bad, try have Zhirinovskyi instead.

 

I can assure you I do not use it as a derogatory term but as a way to separate ALL Jews from those who are members of the Zionist movement and organization:

Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. Formally organized in the late 19th century, the movement was successful in establishing the State of Israel in 1948.

I use the term because there are many jews in this world who either do not care if there is an israel, or are actually against the creation of israel for various reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Teitelbaum
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/









I assure you I am using the term to separate those jews who are involved in the conflict and those who are not, or are against it.

 

Yes, those are the ones who were just at Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's (sp?) Tehran (Holocaust Never happened) conference along with David Duke...

Take Care & Merry Christmas
Ben

 

I doubt that, most of them as far as I can tell do not deny the holocaust. Joel Teitelbaum, one of the leaders of these moevements is a holocaust survivor.

 

These folks look like Hasidic Jews. Not your average everyday jewish folks.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm

 

A handful of Orthodox Jews have attended Iran's controversial conference questioning the Nazi genocide of the Jews - not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.

A representative, UK-based Rabbi Aharon Cohen, told the conference he prayed "that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved".

I have highlighted the important parts, still...that handful is crazy to join in on such a gathering

 

Zionism is a priniciple of Judiasm, as a fact, and despite some very few crazies, many of whom live in Israel and would be dead if not for the state which protects them from yet another Arab genocidal masacre of Jews.

Ruben

 

I personally know several Jews who I would not classify as Zionists, they are not rabidly for or against Israel, they are just plain old Americans that happen to be of the Jewish faith. Much like a good number of plain old American Christians who are not concerned with an ancestral home...When my family left their ancestral home in Ireland in the early 1800's, they didn't look back. As I have said, all Jews are not Zionists...I dont know any Zionist Jews and I do not use Zionist as a derogatory term nor do I think it is one.

 

The blood shed between the Jews and the Arabs goes back so many centruies that it is often hard to remember why they are fighting, even for them. They both personalize the atrocities with accounts of how this family member or that family member was killed by the other 50, a 100, or 300 years ago. They tell their children, they keep the hate alive, they keep the fire buring. We Americans did not start that fire and we'd have to be utter idiots to stay involved in this cycle of violence, revenge, and killings at this point.

I'm sure if you are Jewish you see my attitude as anti-Jewish and if you are Muslim I'm sure that you see my attitude as anti-Muslim. The truth is that I am neither and both. I'd support any Muslim or Jew that was willing to put the past in the past and begin to live with the other. I am against anyone in either group that wants to continue the violence against the other. So I guess in that respect, I could be considered Anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim.

In many instances and in some pretty overt ways, the U.S. has and still is supporting the Jewish State while trying to manage this support against our needs for good relations with the Arab states. This balancing act is not sustainable and we are being forced to go against the principles our country stands for to maintain this precarious position. Something has to give. Either our relationship with Israel has to change or our relationship with the Arab world has to take a new direction that doesn't involve invasions, terrorism, and regime changes.

If history is any example, then I fear we will take the path that leads to more conflict, greater instability, and more hostility towards our stated goals by the rest of the world community. I think we too often pin our hopes on some political leader that will usher in a solution to all these problems when in reality it is the American people which carry the most weight over this decision. And I don't mean once every four years in a voting booth. I am referring to protests in the streets, holding our leaders accountable, and making our voices heard on a daily basis.

The alternative is to just sit there on your hands and watch as your country spirals downward into a second rate democracy not worthy of the world's respect that once came so easily.

 

That you personally know some Jews who hold an opinion doesnt change the facts. Zionism is based on Judeism. Ovenia Yerushalium ere hakodesh is say no less that 6 times a day for the faithful and there is a whole segment of Jewish law pretaining to if a person is allowed to leave Eritz Yisroel if they reside there and the Mitzots of living in the land.

The first line in the Torah is an explanation of God gave the Jews the Land of Israel and and that first verse is to be pointed to as proof of our rights to the land when others proclaim it theirs, specifically after they kill us and forcefully remove us from our lands.

Ruben

 

Your preseption is quiant but ignors two things. First, this hasn't been going on for too many centuies, at least by Jewish standards. The whole Muslim faith and Arab invasion is new, less than a few centuries old when compared to the Babylonians, the Persians, the Romans, and even the Greeks. For nearly 1000 years it was the Greeks and Latins that killed us for living in our land

Secondly, Israel is not a second rate Democracy. It is a first class Demcracy, on par with Brittian, the US and more Democratic than France or Japan.

Thirdly, you ignor the simple fact that Arab Muslims believe that the Jews must all die who live in our own land. That's a call for all out war, and yet the Israeli response has been continually measured, to its detriment. Do you think that Israel could not have completely destroyed Hezbola in the recent Lebanese action? They could have, and they will likely be sorry that they didn't.

Ditto with Hamas.

When a Free People are allow to die in a genocidial frenzy, all Democracies and Free People suffer. That is the reason for the US support of Jews in Israel. Its just the right thing to do and when faced with a Bully, you don't give in to them because more abuse will follow.

Enjoy your Holiday

Ruben
____________________________________________________________________
www.mrbrklyn.com - Interesting Stuff

 

This is WRONG. There are only a fringe of the smallest number of Jews opposed to a Jewish state in the Hollyland, and frankly those people are confused, if not radicals.

Secondly, Teilbuam is in Brooklyn, and Monsey, NOT ISREAL - Duh...

So get your facts straight because you sound more and more like an anti-semite by the minute.

http://www.salutetoisrael.com/about.asp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1420155/posts

 

there are extremeist on the Jewish and Muslim side, the extremeist should fight each other and let the moderates live in peace.

 

Perception is the process of acquiring, interpreting, selecting, and organizing sensory information. Quaint is unfamiliar or unusual in character. So I guess you are trying to say that your sensory information is somehow more familiar and normal in characteristic than is mine. I'm sure that you are absolutely correct about your own perception and that mine must seem strange to you.

If I could wish one thing for you, it would be for you to be able step outside of your perspective briefly and be able to see the perspective of someone that has not been raised so completely interwoven into the fabric of generations of ideology that leaves you little choice and firmly entrenched in the unshakable certainty of your preordained convictions. You might see the situation as many people do as just one long fight over dirt mounds that nobody would bother to look at twice if someone hadn't bestowed the label of "Holy Land" on them. There is no such thing as Holy Land. It's just a another reason to fight and die for something that can never be owned. I can't wait for the time when the human race becomes a spacefaring people and Jews and Muslims land on another planet and decide that this rock or that sand pile is "Holy".

The group I'd respect is the one with the courage to say, We are tired of our chidren dying for this land and walk away. If niether group has the guts to say enough to the violence, I'd say that the human race should walk away from them both. The inmates can not run the asylum in a sane world and the Middle East madness has dictated events for far too long.

I could never pretend to think you could hear these words or internalize their meaning. As I said, I'm sure they are strange to you but that doesn't mean that they are not worth consideration. And I have to admit that your perception is quaint to me as well but I sort of like the place I am observing from, less killing and violence. If that is all my perception gives me, I'll take it everytime.

Bless you during this holiday season. May you and your family be safe and happy.
:smile

 

I never said he WAS in Israel....and he is in fact dead. Do you read what others write?

The fact is that Zionism is not synonymous with Judaism...one can be a Jew and not a Zionist, one can either be a Jew against the the existence of a state called Israel (like rabbi Joel Teitelbaum) or a Jew not concerned with the state of Israel...this is not debatable...not that what you engage in is debate. typing 'duh'? Come on :mouth: ...are you going to say 'I'm rubber you're glue, what you say bounces off me and sticks to you' next?

I am married to a Muslim. Her family speaks of the Jews and their 'occupation' in much the same terms as you speak of Muslims. There is no debate with them, its just black and white as it is with you...not a shock.