I've seen a lot of bullshit from Right-wingers about how guns are similar to cars and how cars are just as deadly as guns, so I though we could do a little comparison. Cars are required to be registered, whether they are purchased from Joe down the street or from a certified dealer. Are guns? To drive a car, you must pass a test and be licensed, must renew that license periodically, etc. What about for guns? Cars are required to be insured, are guns? Cars are taxed, both at point of purchase, registration and inspection (can be considered taxes), and with every gas purchase, guns? ammunition? Obviously, cars are much more highly regulated than guns, yet guns are responsible for more intentional deaths per year (trying to compare a car accident with the purposeful shooting of someone is a laughable comparison) than cars. Care to submit your own comparisons?
As I said in Clembo's thread: I think the reason car deaths and gun deaths are often compared is because the numbers are almost identical to each other every year. And, as a society we are completely at ease with the number of car fatalities but completely freak out about the number of gun fatalities. Another interesting statistic between the 2? The number of DUI deaths is almost the same as the number of gun homicides year in and year out. And both can be charged as murders. Something I forgot to add in that reply was...There are also a similar number of passenger vehicles in the US (254 million) to the number of civilian firearms (270 million) And I will also add this: I believe a DUI death is about as 'accidental' as an armed robbery where the person getting robbed is shot. I believe both are murder...and am not laughing when I say it.
Also, if you want to address the real gun violence problem in America, you had better look to the deaths and injuries that are so common that we take them for granted. Look to the ones that never make the national news even though they account for a much larger number of shootings than the high profile mass shootings. Look to the ones that occur daily. Look to the poverty and hopelessness of youth in our segregated big cities.
I validated your numbers for those interested: In 2008 there were 37,261 deaths caused by automobile, of those, 13,846 were caused by DWI/DUI, that is, 37 percent of car related deaths were DUI/DWI/DUAI/etc. According to Wikipedia, 65% of homicides are carried out with a firearm in the United States, and there are 2.97 homicides involving guns per 100,000 population, ranking us ahead of Colombia, Belarus, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Paraguay, and Zimbabwe, but well behind other industrial, first world, civilized nations like Switzerland at .56 and Hong Kong at .01. So, even though their numbers are proportionately large in terms of total deaths, that is only because there are many more car accidents per year than homicides. However, statistically, guns are almost twice as dangerous, as they account for 65% of total homicides (in 2008). In 2010, that number jumped to 68% of total homicides. Source: Deaths: Final Data for 2010, tables 1, 7, 10, 20 [PDF - 3.1 MB] All homicides 2010 Number of deaths: 16,259 Deaths per 100,000 population: 5.3 Firearm homicides 2010 Number of deaths: 11,078 Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.6 Source: Deaths: Final Data for 2010, table 10, 11 [PDF - 3.1 MB] To compare the US with other nations: Gun Deaths: USA: 14,748 (2011) Japan: 11 (2011 – considered a bad gun year, average is 4 from 1990-2009) UK: 39 (2011) France: 1,864 (2009) Switzerland: 40 (2010) Italy: 246 (2008) Canada: 173 (2009) Source: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region
I agree that combating poverty is paramount to our nation's success and reducing fatalities, etc. I came from a poor household myself. But that is not a valid excuse for not regulating firearms, and I say that as a veteran and avid hunter.
Another interesting gun fact...2/3rds of all gun deaths each year are suicides. So of the 30000-ish gun deaths each year in the US - 20,000 are the shooter killing themselves. Me personally, I figure with or without guns, most of those suicides are going to happen. If it isn't guns, then maybe it is jumping in front of trains like in Japan (which has a very high suicide rate).
I am not advocating unregulated firearms. I am just saying that the reality is that most of the gun problem in the us is poverty, drug and gang related in our inner big cities and all the gun regulation in the world is going to do little to decrease the amount of deaths per year in the US. Least of all assault weapons bans and psychiatric studies. Again, not saying I disagree with the common sense of some of the initiatives, just saying that they are going to have a very small impact on gun deaths in this country.
I really don't have a problem with people killing themselves, it is their choice. What I have a problem with is someone thinking they are the master of another man's life, and thinking that they can take it with impunity. It's not the same as soldiers, who possess a social mandate to kill each other and not civilians. I consider suicide to be a cultural and socio-economic issue, so gun restrictions wouldn't stop it so much as make it more difficult to do. Murders, however, will obviously go down, as the gun is the weapon of choice in over 65% of cases, and a gun de-personalizes the killing process, as it makes it incredibly easy.
I'm not particularly interested in assault weapons bans, though I consider them to be trivial toys (as we discussed and agreed in a previous thread). I am more interested in seeing national regulations that require registering with proofmarks, serials, etc. for all guns, rather than just handguns, and requiring a renewable license, registration, and annual mental health reports by personal doctors required to keep your registration and permit. As a trail guide in New York, I am required to submit more documents from my doctor to bring people in and out of the woods than people are required to purchase a gun.
In order to keep my trail guide license I have to submit: Physical assessment by a physician CPR certification Wilderness survival class completion certificate and/or military experience - honorable discharge only. hunting and fishing permit First aid certification notarized climbing resume list of personal references So, I have to pass all the barriers placed on guns, PLUS a whole bunch of other crap. Thus, it is easier to obtain a gun than it is to become a safe hunting instructor. Some of the city people I've brought through Partridge Run were downright dangerous with a gun in their hands.
I can't find much to disagree with. I do think there are a lot of things that we can do to prevent the every so often, lone nutjob scenario. Most are common sense stuff like background checks, etc. But I still believe that the solutions that could have the most effect in terms of number of lives saved from gun violence are not regulatory related. Most of those are education, drug policy and economic related. I personally know one murderer. She was a friend of my wife's who baked my oldest child's first cake when she was 18. She shot and killed her husband (with her drug dealers gun) and then set their house on fire when she was 34. I think that she probably would have stabbed or axed him while sleeping or burned him alive if there wasn't a gun available. Some percentage of that 11000 gun homicides a year are just going to happen no matter what we do.
For sure Stu. In my thread you stated the same and I brought up Gary, IN (population about 90,000) and the small city of about 30,000 that I live in very close to Gary. The stats have changed a bit in the past few weeks. My city still has ZERO murders. Gary is already up to THREE. ALL by guns. I just googled this. http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/in/gary/crime/ I can't verify it's accuracy but I feel it's a good representation of what a community that is poor and over run with drugs and gangs often is. Gary fits that description.
I've said it before, if you think cars are such deadly tools that they justify guns, defend yourself with your car. Of course if the other guy has a gun, you might say that a car was a poor choice of defensive weapons. So saying that a car death is analogous to a gun death is just sort of stupid. A gun is far more deadly. The car analogy only works on stupid people.
I agree but, on the other hand, the use of cars is heavily regulated (as described in the OP) and improper use of them can result in felonies (murder/homicide by vehicle/etc). So there absolutely is a recognition that they are dangerous implements and not everyone should be allowed to operate them and operating them improperly has legal consequences. Maybe we should regulate them as being more similar than we do. BTW: A car is a pretty good defense against a knife and can be a good defense against a gun...if you are the President or otherwise uber rich.
Notice how the discussions stay civil when 3 unnamed individuals do not get involved (no, not you Clembo ).
