Defining "TRUE" Muslims...

Now Now, they are all God's creatures and we need to love them all without judging them by their actions. Oh wait a minute, I'm not the sanctimonious hypocrite here, I get to do whatever the heck I want to them. :yawn:

 

Nope, your the liberal zealot who secretly scampers around trying to get the LAST post...

 

I don't even know where that comment is coming from. Why would I care about getting "the last" post?

P.S. Let's save terms like zealot for your brethren.

 

Between USA and Russian Federation there should be competition to see who first to bake them with tactical atom bomb.

 

I consider myself a Christian man, and try to walk the walk. I am not a radical, but realize, in the past, horrible atrocities have been done in the name of Christ. I believe this is where the Muslim world is now. A relatively small fraction, (still, a huge group of followers regardless) have taken parts of the Koran in a context to justify their reasons for violence and hatred. We do need to come down hard on this group, but at the same time have compassion for the believers who don't follow the radicals. Their lives are in as much, or more danger than our own.

 

The most oft-repeated myth in the mythical war against terrorism is the notion that radical islam is a corrupted and extreme interpretation of an otherwise good and peaceful religion. It is quite the opposite!!

A "radical" is actually someone who favors extreme change and who differs substantially from the established norm. Yet the islamic terrorists all openly admit with their word, and confirm by their deeds, that they are fundamentalists (or "true" muslims) - meaning that they are the opposite of radicals.

The islamic term for these fundamentalists is Salafi. It tells us that these muslims live by and rely upon the testimony of muhammad (no praise to him) and his companions, which is to say they trust the koran and hadith.

For instance, wahhabis are Salafi fundamentalists as are all Islamic terrorists.

No...this religion has NOT been hijacked. It IS what it IS!! It always has been this way and this cancer is spreading among civilized nations.

 

I figure like any religion, a Muslim is all in how you approach it..there is no one way of being christian...same with islam...no matter how much one would pigeon hole them as all terrorists or insist that only TRUE muslims are one way...pure hatred and ignorance of reality, vilification of all of them and a misunderstanding on how many people approach the religion in modern times is what I see here...I feel dirty responding to this thread so I will probably not bother with this any more, just wanted to drop one last bit of sanity and then allow him to rant and rave unopposed (by me at least). I find, like with most zealots, you give them attention...you validate it as if such madness is something worthy of debate.


Islam is, like most religions, all in how you practice it...Like the bible it offers pearls of wisdom and peace, and it also offers war and intolerance. You can approach it like the Ismaili and the Aga Khan (of which there are millions)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aga_Khan_IV


Or you can approach it in its extreme form...like a terrorist.


I would say the more peaceful Ismaili (who run your convenience stores, gas stations, hotels, etc...) who are more influenced by the west, whose leader is westernized and is married to a western woman...are good true muslims...

Like any religion there are different sects, different ways of approaching a religion...some that are extreme and others that are moderate...there are strict fundies, and there are reformers...You do not seem to realize this, most likely do not know any muslims nor would you, you are as closed off to them I would think as a fundie muslim is closed off to the jews...

But certainly there are a lot of bad muslims out there...when one tries to make your religion the only one, the law of the land, or live strictly by old testament ways, etc...there will always be bad things...only when the hate filled obsessive radicals...muslims and people like midas, become extinct will the rest of us be able to live without fear. Wish you could pack up all the terrorists and reactionaries and put them on an island and let them kill each other off away from common decent folk. The winner gets the island

 

OK...I'll play your game. I give you a more analytical response...

There are between 1.2 and 1.5 billion muslims in the world. Half are women. While a substantial percentage of islamic women support jihad, less than one in fifty islamic terrorist acts is actually perpetrated by a female. That leaves us with a maximum pool of jihadists that is just over 50% of the total population.

Follow me so far? Good!

The overwhelming preponderance of terrorist acts are conducted by young Muslim men 15 to 30 years old. This age bracket covers about half of the male population of the islamic world, leaving us with a potential jihad pool of 25% of all Muslims - approximately 300 million people.

The most logical way to determine the percentage of Muslims who are salafi/fundamentalists/"true" muslims - a precondition to jihad - is to consider the most recent elections in islamic countries. For example, the fundamentalist islamic group Hamas received 65% of the popular vote in "Palestine." The somewhat secular Fatah, at least by comparison to Hamas, won only 30% of the votes.

Interesting numbers, don't you think?

While he was not popularly elected, Turkey's president, Ahmet Necdet Sezar, is a fundamentalist muslim. Turkey's parliament, which selected him by a 70% majority, is formed as a result of a popular mandate and it is predominately comprised of fundamentalist, "true" muslims. Turkey's Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is the nation's most popular leader. He is a convicted felon who believes: "Mosques are our barracks, domes are our helmets, minarets our bayonets, and believers our soldiers."

He won a landslide victory in 2002 - and Turkey is considered to be the most "moderate" islamic state. This is what muslims call "moderate"????

It gets better...

(As I stated earlier) The newly elected fundamentalist islamic nutcase ruling Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (I'm-in-the-mood-for-jihad), earned 62% of the popular vote. The most moderate islamic challenger garnered less than 20% support. The notion that the majority of Iranians are hostile to the Shia mullahs, and are poised for a revolution, is a myth

In Lebanon, politicians got all excited when 50,000 people marched in support of democracy. The following week when 500,000 people protested in support of islam/submission, the percentage of fundamentalist ("true") muslims became clear.

Fundamentalist or "true" islamic candidates in the most recent Iraqi elections, those individuals who belonged to clerical parties like the Islamic Revolution in Iraq founded by Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, won 65% of the seats in the new parliament.

Now I been accused by the likes of Moen and others that opinion surveys can be suspect, and are often tainted by the manner in which a question is phrased, there are two that are worth mentioning.

Opinion polls taken by the British Government reveal that 70% of Iraqis think killing Americans is justified, something that is impossible to justify outside the conditioning of fundamentalist islam!!

The rising death toll of American troops and stunning escalation in terror in Iraq give credence to those numbers. Polls taken in Pakistan, where bin Laden is most likely being harbored, reveal that 70% of Pakistanis view the world's most famous islamic terrorist very favorably.

In fact, Osama has become the most popular name for boys in the region. How cute is that??

Therefore, based upon the most objective data available to us, at least 60% of all muslims have the potential to be jihadists by way of their fundamentalist voting patterns.

That is to say, your islam has grown substantially closer to its salafi, and thus terrorist, roots over the past decade. It is safe to say that 750 million Muslims are fundamentalists trying to follow allah's orders and muhammad's (no praise to him) example. And as fundamentalists or "true" muslinm, they are potential jihadists.

If the 60% response levels derived from polling data is an accurate reflection of the current state of Islam, then sex and age criteria further reduce Islamic terrorist candidates down to a maximum of one in every seven Muslims - 25% of 60%. That means that no more than 15% of the total Islamic population of 1.2 to 1.5 billion people has the potential to be a terrorist should the opportunity arise.

That equates to a minimum of 180 million potential jihadists and a maximum of 225 million.

But when it comes to actual jihadists, to those who have or will commit an act of terrorism in allah's name, it is only logical that they represent no more than one in one hundred of the 180 million young fundamentalist muslim men prepared mentally, morally, and spiritually to be terrorists.

That means that there are 1.8 million actual islamic jihadists on the planet today - a number which could jump one hundred fold almost instantaneously should the opportunity arise.

Before you get a warm and cozy feeling, thinking that only 60% of Muslims are sufficiently indoctrinated in fundamentalist islam to be a terrorist should the opportunity arrise, and that only 25% of those Muslims are the appropriate age and sex to actually engage in jihad, let's consider some recent historical events.

In 1917, less than 3% of Russians were Communists. Yet since that 3% was sufficiently corrupted by an immoral and ruthless religion (Socialist Secular Humanism), they quickly came to oppress the entire nation - murdering 30 million Russians in the process. Also, in 1924, less than 3% of Germans were Nazis. And yet since that 3% was sufficiently corrupted by Hitler's "People's Religion" as it was immorally and ruthlessly laid out in Mein Kampf, that 3% came to oppress the entire nation and led the world into a war that killed 50 million people.

Also keep in mind that while only 15% of Muslims are potential jihadists today, that percentage is growing rapidly.

Thanks to OPEC funding and clerical indoctrination, teaching children since birth to hate Jews and us infidels, the islamic world is becoming increasingly fundamentalist or "true" muslim.

In 20 years most muslims could be terrorists - and probably will be, hence the reason why we must deal with these animals NOW!!

Damn...I am good!

 

:headbang: Hey Midas, guess we Had better not send you to the middle east as a diplomat eh?

 

You know people like Moen and others claim that they actions of "true" muslims are "only a handful" living and breeding inside the muslim community. I, on the other had, totally disagree.

Well let's seriously look at these numbers in detail, shall we?

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The straightforward Arithmetic of Jihad

It's time we (especially the appeasers here at Coin Talk) open our eyes and confront reality. Ever since the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the media (and Drusus) has sought to reassure us that only a tiny minority of Muslims actually support the use of violence against Israel and the West.

It's just a small fringe, a marginal few at best, they tell us, so don't worry about it all too much. One percent or three percent - who cares?


Just sit back, enjoy your morning eggs and coffee and have a nice day.

But a look at the numbers tells a very different story. The extent of support for global jihad is frightening in its proportions, and the numbers are anything but insignificant.

Consider, for example, the following statistics regarding support for suicide bombings and other types of terror attacks.

In a poll conducted five months ago, and broadcast on Britain's Channel 4 TV, nearly 25% of British Muslims said the July 7, 2005, terror bombings in London, which killed 52 innocent commuters, were justified.

Another 30% said they would prefer to live under strict Islamic Sharia law rather than England's democratic system.

Now, one in four justifying terror may not be a majority, but it certainly isn't a "small fringe" either.

In other countries, the figures are no less unsettling. A survey published in December found that 44% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombing attacks are "often" or "sometimes" acceptable.


According to the annual Pew Global Attitudes Survey, released in July 2006, "roughly one-in-seven Muslims in France, Spain and Great Britain feel that suicide bombings against civilian targets can at least sometimes be justified to defend Islam." The report also found that less than half of Jordan's Muslims believe terror attacks are never justified. In Egypt, only 45% of Muslims say terror is never justified.

STILL THINK only a "tiny minority" of Muslims are in favor of violence?

In Israel, the percentages are even more alarming. After Cpl. Gilad Shalit was abducted by Hamas terrorists last summer, a poll conducted by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center revealed that 77.2% of Palestinians supported the kidnapping, while 66.8% said they would back additional such attacks.


More than six out of 10 Palestinians also said they were in favor of firing Kassam rockets at Israeli towns and cities.

And lest you think that war fever lay behind the results, consider this: four additional polls published in September, nearly a month after the Lebanese conflict had ended, all found large majorities of Palestinians backing terror attacks against the Jewish state.

Indeed, in various countries around the world, support for Muslim fundamentalist terror groups appears to be widespread.

On the fifth anniversary of the September 11 attacks, a survey conducted by Al-Jazeera asked respondents, "Do you support Osama Bin-Laden?" A whopping 49.9% answered: yes.

And the July 2006 global Pew survey found that among Muslims, a quarter of Jordanians, a third of Indonesians, 38% of Pakistanis and 61% of Nigerians all expressed confidence in the mass murderer who founded al-Qaida.

In Lebanon six months ago, the Beirut Center for Research and Information found that over 80% of the Lebanese population said they supported Hizbullah.
And do I need also to mention that a majority of Palestinians backed Hamas in parliamentary elections last year? Sure, there are also places where support for violent jihad is not as high. As Reuters reported on October 15, just 10 percent of Indonesian Muslims said they backed jihad and supported bomb attacks on the island of Bali aimed at foreign tourists.



But Indonesia is home to more than 200 million Muslims, so while 10 percent may sound like a small number percentage-wise, it is actually quite large in absolute terms. It means there are some 20 million Muslims in Indonesia alone who are willing to say out loud that they support the use of violence and terror against innocent human beings.

Since when is that a "marginal few"? The question of whether a "tiny" or "sizable" minority backs the global jihad is far more than just one of semantics. It goes to the very nature of the struggle that Israel and the West now find ourselves in.

The figures above, taken from a variety of nations, continents and contexts, all point in one very ominous direction. They demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that the global jihadist movement enjoys a wide and broad base of support that extends far beyond just a minuscule number of supporters.

POLITICIANS, journalists, and many here at Coin Talk might wish to believe, as we all do, that the backers of violent jihad are few and far between, and that they do not represent large numbers of people with like-minded extremist views. But that is simply not the case.

The arithmetic of jihad is quite straight-forward, and it is time we stopped looking the other way and pretending otherwise.

The threat posed by Islamic fundamentalism (true islam) to Israel and the West can, and must, be met. With determination and a sense of purpose, victory is not out of reach.

But the longer we continue to underestimate the extent of the problem, the more difficult it will be to defeat it.
So let's put aside all that wishful thinking, and roll up our collective sleeves and get to work. Like it or not, the war on Islamic terror still faces a long road ahead.

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For all of the appeasers out there...do you still really think this islamic madness is being orchestrated from a "small" minority?

 

Hey, are trying to bait me with all those large colorful screaming text toys? Loudness is never a substitute for correctness. :mouth:

 

OK...I'll play your game, where was I incorrect in my last post?

I know, I know...the truth hurts about this religion and worse yet, their ACTIONS!

 

Dunno, I didn't read it. Sorry.

 

Of course, the truth hurts, doesn't it?

 

Truth or relentless droning of your version of the truth? Without reading it, I'm 100% positive I've read it all before. What would be the point of reading your opinion again and listening to you label it as THE truth? It's just your opinion, nothing more and I don't happen to agree with it so... Being loud and obnoxious only serves to take away from your message and even if it had been true, nobody would listen anyway. You're your own worst enemy. Thanks for the help!:hug:

 

I compiled research studies, voting results, etc., all into one nice precise post. So what part are you having a tough time understanding?

Let me help you...

 

A little levity here on Ground Hog Day...

I heard Elvis's song on the radio and I rewrote the words to apply to today's fight...

(From the music of Elvis Presley’s hit: In the Ghetto)

**********************************************

For the Jihad…

As sand blows by…
On a hot and dry Mecca morning
A poor little Muslim boy is born
For the jihad…

And his mama cries
‘cause if there’s one thing that she don’t need
It’s another hungry mouth to feed
For the jihad…

Infidels, don’t you understand
This Muslim needs a helping hand
Or he’ll grow up to be an angry killer some day
Take a look at you and me,
Are we too blind to see,
Do we simply turn our heads
And look the other way?

‘Cause that is what appeasers do…
So the angry little boy with his new M-16
Kills his first Jew at the age of thirteen.
For the jihad…

And Allah is pleased
So he starts to preach the Koran at night
And he stomps and screams
That all Muslims must fight
For the jihad…

Then one day in desperation
This young man has had enough
He buys C4, steals a car,
Rams a marketplace, as his body blows far…
And the muslims rejoice.....

As a crowd gathers around the parts of this man
Spilled on the street with a Koran in his hand
For the jihad…

As another bomb goes off,
On a hot and dry Mecca morning
Another little Muslim child is born
For the jihad…

 

Sadly so true :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: So sadly true...

 

Honestly, the only thing you've done is come to a conclusion and then looked for anything that will back up your position. If you don't see the flaw in that approach, I really can't help you. :headbang:

 

The central organizing principle in the US is freedom. The central organizing principle in the middle east is Islam. Anyone who engages in this sort of discussion without understanding that is wasting their time, and everyone elses. Neither side is going to change. We would never permit foreign occupiers to convince us that what we really need is to govern according to the principles of Islam, and we shouldn't expect people in that region to accept the democratic traditions and secularism of the West either without a lengthy and bloody perhaps multi-generational conflict. People who conduct this discussion and have to use words such as "extremism" or "terrorists" or "appeasement" not only will never be able to arrive at any useful policy conclusions, they are a danger to the United States as much as any external enemy. There is nothing they will not say, and no level of violence goes too far in their eyes to avoid admission that they are wrong. It's madness.