Defining "TRUE" Muslims...

I have been working on this for awhile so consider my logical argument:

Any objective person would question, if there something inherently violent about the faith of islam for terrorist attacks seem to happen on a virtually daily basis. If Catholics, Buddhists, Hinduists, Jews, or any other religion were committing these types of atrocities on such a frequent basis - while invoking the name of religion - any objective person would likewise call them into question too! But is that the case with many appeasers here at Coin Talk? Why does it always seem to be in the name of freakin' islam and not any other religion? Where are these animals getting these ideas from?

Yes, many muslim apologists here at Coin Talk will say that it is a few bad apples who don't represent the whole. That's a nice try...What about those isalmic terrorists claiming the "moderate" muslims are not really muslims and denounce their cowardice? How do we know which faction represents islam most closely? Again...I will ask this question...what is a "true" Muslim?

As we can't rely solely on personal examples because of our flawed nature (see...I'll admit it), we must go back to the source documents (i.e., the koran), traditions. and/or hierarchy of this faith right?

Many appeasers here at Coin Talk continue to cite the problem with text documents like the koran is the matter of interpretation right? Once again our flawed nature enters the picture. So, although personal examples can not be relied on entirely to form an accurate appraisal of this faith, their actions can neither be ignored as it may demonstrate how the faithful of "true islam" understand their religion and put it into practice.

A few people have already cited quotes from the Bible and I have from the koran to try and illustrate certain points.

Some of you liberal appeasers have brought forth a number of potentially problematic verses in the Bible. Most of them deal with the subject matter of either death or violence. O.K., that’s fair enough. So, I’ll broadly examine some of them.

With respect to Old Testament verses, didn't the Jews believe in an eye for eye sense of justice - as you see in the koran? However...didn't Jesus address and correct these understandings in the New Testament?

Yes, in the New Testament Jesus speaks of people suffering in Hell because of their sin. But if He is the Word made flesh, as Christians believe, that is his role as God and judge. Even if a person does not believe that, is He commanding His followers to usurp His place and make themselves judge of all here on earth? Is He commanding followers to send sinners to Hell?

If anything, He preaches against that inclination. Therefore, if someone is truly following their faith how does this negatively impact the non-believer? The worst that these passages advocate is to live an upright life and moral life in order to avoid Hell among other reasons. This is a common concept among many religions, even in some islamic communities. So, what's the point?

The real concern should be, is He giving DIRECT, LITERAL COMMANDS for the faithful to kill or maim others - especially those of other faiths and backgrounds? And if there are problematic verses are these statements merely allegorical and symbolic in nature? These are common issues among many religious texts – discerning the literal from symbolic and can lead to some heated debates.

Yet, since Jesus was known for speaking in symbolic Parables this kind of communication should be factored in when interpreting certain passages.

Anyway, the worst I can find, and that which you illustrated, is Jesus stating that we should cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes if they cause us to sin. But is this a direct, literal command, or is it an allegory to illustrate the seriousness of sin? Of the tens of thousands of Christian denominations, how many make this a literal practice. If this was literal shouldn't everyone be mutilated? Who among us is perfect or sinless?

If it is a direct, literal command, than it be common to find among the followers who practice the faith? Look around, is that a common observance among Christians? Are there daily reports of yet another Christian crackpot having plucked out their eyes or having cut off their hands?

Now, I know when dealing with the koran, some apologists here at Coint Talk will explain that the arabic can never be translated perfectly. Fair enough, in every ancient text of another religion something may be lost in translation. So, that's why examining faith in practice may be one indicator of how close or how far off the mark the translations are.

So, again...let’s examine a few quotes from the koran and compare how/if they are put into practice amongst those in the muslim community.

In the koran it says with respect to dealing with theives:

5.38. As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

Is this a direct, literal, command or is it merely symbolic? One way of knowing is to see if it is commonly applied in muslim communities. Are there muslim countries or governments that implement this practice with thieves? Or what about these verses, are these direct, literal, commands, or are they symbolic? The answer is look at their actions!

5.45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by the light of what Allah hath revealed, they are no better than wrong-doers.

24:2. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

What about kidnappings and beheadings? Aren’t these common incidents that are so often attributed to radical Muslims? What does the koran say about this?

47:4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly on them: thereafter is the time for either generosity or ransom:

Is there any way to take this passage in a symbolic nature? Do we see infidels being taken captive and at times either being ransomed or beheaded? If so, doesn’t this provide some evidence that it may be a direct command of a literal nature from the koran?

Again, does Jesus ever advocate waging war or harming anyone of another religious belief? It is true that Jesus states He has not come to bring peace but a sword which will divide people. But even if interpreted in a literal sense is this a call to arms? For that matter is it a call to arms against specific groups of people? Or is it possibly another symbolic message? Is Jesus advocating for families and people to attack on another or is He trying to say that by believing in Him, you risk a superficial, earthly peace because there are those who hate Him.

Yet if islam is a religion based on peace, why is there a whole Surah (chapter) in koran dedicated to Spoils of War and Booty? Is there anything remotely similar in the New Testament?

Here are a number of problematic quotes. Are these direct, literal commands? Or are they symbolic? And yet, do we find islamic factions that practice them?

8:12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels with the message: "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Again is smiting the unbelievers above their necks a command to behead people? Does this possibly explain why we have seen or heard of so many? Are those that follow this command “radical” or “extreme” in relation to the tenets set forth here? Or are they merely following to the letter what the koran instructs them to do? Why does a pro-islamic translation use the word terror in the text? Especially with terrorism such a hot topic, why not use a different word?

Don't these types of passages make one wonder how much is actually lost in translation if we see these kinds of acts routinely?


8:15. O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

8:16. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop of his own - he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed!

8:17. It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah. when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not thy act, but Allah’s: in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from

8:39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

Is this passage advocating fighting non-muslims until every person is a muslim?

8:57. If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.

8:60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike TERROR into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

8:65. O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

Is this passage advocating that violence against non-Muslims be incited? Again do we see this in practice? Do the "radicals" keep publically calling the other muslims to arms?

8:67. It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

8:69. But now enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

8:72. Those who believed, and adopted exile, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of Allah, as well as those who gave them asylum and aid,- these are all friends and protectors, one of another….

8:74. Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith, in the cause of Allah …

8:75. And those who accept Faith subsequently, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith in your company,- they are of you…

Doesn't this passage illustrate that those who fight in the name of allah are truly of the muslims?

The main stream media and 'not muslim enough' muslims often distance them as 'radicals' or 'fundamentalists' - but doesn't this passage from the koran reassert that they are in fact of the faith? On that note, what is a muslim 'fundamentalist?' I understand the modern definition is basically a literalist -which can these qoutes be taken as anything other than literal. But doesn't the word derive from the root word, fundamental? If I am a follower who understands, believes, and applies the fundamentals of my faith wouldn't I in fact be a fundamentalist?

In short, aren't the 'fundamentalists' (i.e., "true" muslims) the ones who truly know and understand their faith – as opposed to the ‘pick and choose’ faithful?

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first to assault you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

9:14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

9:29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Is this passage advocating violence against Jews and Christians (People of the Book). Isn't it also saying that the non-Muslims should be fought until they subdue them and everyone who is not a Muslim is paying the Jizya. Isn't the Jizya a per capita tax imposed on non-Muslim adult males. What happens if they refuse to pay the Jizya?

9:41. Go ye forth, whether equipped lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah…

9:111. Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs in return is the garden of Paradise: they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

9:123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

33:26. And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast TERROR into their hearts. So that some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.

Hmmm, why that word 'terror' again?

33:61. They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy.

38:2. But the Unbelievers are steeped in self-glory and Separatism.

8:3. How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried for mercy- when there was no longer time for being saved!

44:16. One day We shall seize you with a mighty onslaught: We will indeed then exact Retribution!

48:16. Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: "Ye shall be summoned to fight against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, Allah will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous Penalty."

48:17. No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill if he joins not the war: But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- Allah will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, Allah will punish him with a grievous Penalty.

So if a Muslim refuses to fight and die for the cause of Allah he will be punished - unless that is he is a blind, lame or ill faithful one? If so, what does this say about moderates who are not taking up arms and would rather live a peaceful existence?

61:4. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.

2:216. Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

3:151. Soon shall We cast TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Is it a coincidence that the word ‘terror’ is used here yet again? And you wonder where these islamic terrorists get their notions from?

4:74. Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah - whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great value.

4:75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah

4:76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

4:78. "Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" If some good befalls them, they say, "This is from Allah.; but if evil, they say, "This is from thee" O Prophet. Say: "All things are from Allah." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?

4:84. Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.

The dictionary defines the words ‘rouse’ and ‘incite’ as “to stir up.” The words are synonymous. Is this a ‘green light’ for muslims to incite other muslims to anger, hatred, and violence? I have pcitures to document these actions if you wish!

4:89. They but wish that you should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they: But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah from what is forbidden. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks

4:91. Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you guarantees of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.

4:95. Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. Unto all in Faith Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit at home by a special reward,-

Does this mean it is better for a muslim to fight than stay at home and pray peacefully? Doesn't that sound like a good way of finding recruits by questioning the depth of one's devotion to a militant version of Islam?

4:104. And slacken not in following up the enemy…

5:33., The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

7:4. How many towns have We destroyed for their sins? Our punishment took them on a sudden by night or while they slept for their afternoon rest

7:5. When thus Our punishment took them, no cry did they utter but this: "Indeed we did wrong."

7:17. "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude for thy mercies

Anyway, I'll let the forum make up their own minds. But in closing I suggest that those "not- muslim-enough" or so called "moderate-muslims" should spend more time trying to reach the "radical" or "true" muslims and convert them with the same zeal used to try and deflect blame onto other peoples and faiths.

I don't know how you'll do it with no authoritative hiearchy and with those kinds of hate passages in the koran, but this is the book 1.2 billion follow and hence why we must learn about our enemy before we can deal with this cancer of the civilized world.

 

I certainly have never been an apologist for Muslims. Some people (it seems you being one of them) seem to think if I am not labeling all Muslims as evil and seeing Israel and the west as completely innocent of any and all wrong doing… then I am somehow appeasing them. This is highly dishonest but a common, though transparent, tactic.

I tend to agree with you that Islam poses a serious problem in the world today that needs to be addressed. I fully support efforts to do so. I fully supported the invasion of Afghanistan to rid the world of the Taliban and al qaeda and actions that kill terrorists. I will also agree with you, and many Muslims will agree with you, that there needs to be a reform of Islam and how it is approached by many of its followers. No argument there. I would also say that there are serious problems in some factions of Christianity and Judaism as well…these days to a lesser degree.

I DO NOT support rhetoric designed to vilify a whole religion, race, or population for the actions of those among them that do these things. I travel quite extensively to the middle east for my job, and to Europe and Africa here and there as well and I simply know far too many Muslims that are NOT violent terrorists and do not prescribe to terrorism and I will not be taken in by such blatant propaganda. I will not be swept up in a frenzy of reactionist hate speech with cryptic overtones of holy war, all of us versus all of them…

I do not hate all white people because some of them have hung and oppressed blacks and looked to rob blacks of rights, I do not hate all Europeans for colonialism, I do not hate all Americans for the genocide of the American Indian, I do not hate all men because some of them are rapists and murders, I do not hate all Christians because a small amount choose to bomb abortion clinics, bash gays, or protest at soldiers funerals. Nor do I hate all followers of Islam.

At one time so called Christians killed, raped, tortured, etc…in the name of god. In this country it was not uncommon to have a hot poker run through your tongue for speaking blasphemy and don’t get me started on the crusades and inquisition. But I fully agree that these days, thankfully, Christians are more prone to discarding much of the blatant calls for violence, harsh death punishments, misogyny, rape, slavery and murder that the old testament calls its followers to commit in the name of god. Christianity has reformed.

For every evil awful quote from the Koran you post I could post one from the old testament (without doubt a part of the bible and an important one as we get our ten commandments as well as other important instructions from god that are extremely important to Christianity). It all matters how much a specific church or sect or believer of Christianity relies on the Old Testament.

That seems to be what is so good about Christians…they pick and choose what they will use. If we are talking about homosexuality, a Christian will without hesitation quote from the Old Testament how homosexuality is a sin in gods eyes…they may even quote that God proscribes death to homosexuals in the Old Testament, you will hear a Christian often quoting old testament scripture when it suits his or her need to make a point. But if you point out that god (in these books) also told his followers it is okay to commit genocide, it is okay to rape, it is okay to stone a woman to death for having sex before marriage…they will shrug it off as the old testament and not relevant…only those parts they WANT to use to make their points is relevant. It is okay for many Christians to HATE homosexuality based on the Old Testament.

You are probably right though, because many Muslims to not pick and choose but instead often follow it word for word…there is a problem with Islam in modern society. At one time, Christianity was as violent and war like as Islam but through reform and a better understanding of human rights, women have been given more freedom, slaves have been freed and slowly blacks were given rights in the 60’s. Today, a person can even choose not to believe in god and a Christian wont flay them to death and will instead pray for their damned soul or just show contempt (still better than the death sentence it used to be)… so I agree, Christianity and the west have made great strides while Islam as remained stagnant.

I do not condone terrorism, violence and antagonism (on either side) I will not pretend that the west is squeaky clean in its history. Because the west advanced far faster than the middle east, east, Africa, and many tribal societies, they also committed some of the most heinous crimes and occupied these lands in the most brutal way, often for hundreds of years. While most colonialism ended by the 40’s and 50’s…one simply cannot deny the problem such policies created to admittedly underdeveloped societies and people. Why do you think Islam is so appealing to underdeveloped nations that have suffered hundreds of years of oppression at the hands of the west? For one it is not the religion of their oppressors, for two…it tells them its okay for them to hurt those who they might see as the reason for their situation…right or wrong.

In the end, I am not giving Islam a pass, but I am seeing the big picture and see a problem with many religions (including Hindu, don’t get me started with them) as both give each other a reason to do what they do…talk of chosen ones and holy lands and exalting mortal flawed men as men of god who are somehow supposed to be more wise than us…its all very dangerous as you can see in the news everyday…I also fear radical Islam is giving strength to a new rise of radical Christian.

So you see, I hate terrorist Muslims, I disdain religious fundamentalism in all forms, I take people one at a time on their actions and deeds, I do not judge all Christians on the actions of some, nor do I judge all middle eastern people and Muslims on the actions of terrorists…I will not allow the terrorists to make me live in terror, fear and bigotry…

just the quote you have in your post shows me that you are a factional partisan person...I have had enough conversations with people who throw around the words liberal and conservative like they are dirty words and insults to know you exactly what to expect from you.

BTW, I am married to a muslim...BOO! :lol:

 

Obviously you are probably married a "arab" woman, not a "true" muslim.

After all, "true" muslims have no use for "not-muslim-enough" muslims and look to KILL them too! After all, if your "muslim" wife denounces all of the hate I listed above along with the activities of her pedophile prophet (who married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9...while he was in his 50's!), well...true muslims will find issue if she denounces the koran.

And please bring forth the last "radical" Christian that walked into a shopping center and yelled out, "Jesus is great!" before he killed himself and the innocent.

Again...look at their actions, never their words because their actions (current) all speak volumes.

 

I yeah...I forgot...all muslims are evil...my bad...

Well..I cant quote the christian who walked into a mall and blew himself up...how about the last christian who blew up clinic? or a federal building? or shot an doctor? I can name quite a few of those...

I can also name some nice christians who, following the bible...married 9-14 year olds...keeping multiple underage wives...I can also quote several prophets from the bible that not only married young girls, they raped them, or killed them for minor offenses and owned slaves...

I guess religion is just a great thing all around

Sadly, my wife is a muslim...just not the kind that you see on the news so you dont see her. Her whole family, mother, father and his 9 brothers and 1 sister...all muslims. Nice people...very devout.

 

Boy...is she and her family in trouble for violating these koranic laws:

Koran 9:29. Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.

So here Prophet Mohammed is instructing a true Muslim to fight people of other religions until the unbelievers debase themselves and pay tax (like socialist programs) for their existence. So the greatness of Islam is revealed only when follwers of other religions are humiliated.

Koran 8:12 Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

Here Mohammed is giving step by step instruction on how to torture and kill Kafirs if they don't follow Islam. Tolerate prophet, would you say?

Koran 9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

In the above verse Prophet Mohammed is clearly instructing his followers to kill the idolators in any brutal way possible until the idolators submit themselves to Islam. Allah is indeed merciful !!

Koran 9:73 Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their Home: an evil fate.

Here Mohammed is trying to justify his brutal acts. He conveniently claims divine justification for the expression of his hatred by saying Allah himself revealed to him personally that people of other religions are evil and belong in Hell. Therefore, according to Mohammed any barbaric act against the unbelievers is completely justified.

Koran 4:144 Believers, do not choose the unbelievers rather than the faithful as your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?

This verse clearly states that a Muslim can only befreind a Muslim. Mohammed in order to ensure that his followers will not befriend and get influenced by people of other religions, revealed this verse. This verse illustrates that if a Muslim befriends a Non-Muslim than the wrath of Allah will be on him. Therefore in Islam, people of other religions should be treated with contempt,disrespect and cruelty.

Koran 47:4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens.

In the above verse, Mohammed is giving detailed instruction about how to maim and torture unbelievers in Jihad. And finally when the Muslims are satisfied enough after torturing and maiming the unbelievers, they should proceed to demand ransom for the captives. All for the sake for all-merciful Allah !!

Koran 5:33-34 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is Forgiving, merciful

Hmmmmmmmm....So she denounces all of the hate in the koran and all of the acts of her prophet?

Good...now let's see her and her family do that on Arab "Must-See" Television and watch how "true" muslims react (with action) to her words.

BTW...there have been over 7,000 islamic terror attacks since 9/11 ALONE resulting in one death in the name of Islam. How many attacks resulting in death do YOU have coming from radical Christians and Jews who kill the innocent in the name of their God?

 

yes...she rejects most of that...like many christians reject the commands of god in the old testament...I wont bother quoting them, there are so many it would take all day...like you I wont quote the good parts either...you know the parts that contradict each other just like in the koran. There ARE passges in the koran that contradict the ones that call for violence and hate...just like in the bible...moderate muslim do what moderate chrisians do...they pick and choose

 

No...the New Testament trumps everything in the Old Testament. Christians have moved on into the civlized world.

True muslims do not "pick and chose" and hence the reason why "true" muslims have no problem killing muslims like your wife that are "not-muslim-enough".

Remember to remind your wife this:

The koran invites muslims to give their lives in exchange for assurances of paradise. The Hadith (accounts of muhammad’s actions and personal statements) elaborate on the koran, providing specific injunctions about treaties, pay, booty, prisoners, tactics, and much else. Muslim jurisprudents then wove these precepts into a body of law.

Muhammad’s conquests: During his years in power, the prophet engaged in an average of nine military campaigns a year, or one every 5-6 weeks; thus did jihad help define Islam from its very dawn. Conquering and humiliating non-Muslims was a main feature of the prophet’s jihad. When he wasn't busy, he was doing little girls as young as nine years old. Nice leader of this new religion, don't you think?

The Arab conquests and after: During the first several centuries of Islam, “the interpretation of jihad was unabashedly aggressive and expansive.” After the conquests subsided, non-Muslims hardly threatened and Sufi notions of jihad as self-improvement developed in complement to the martial meaning.

The Crusades, the centuries-long European effort to control the Holy Land, gave jihad a new urgency and prompted what many historians call the “classical” theory of jihad. Finding themselves on the defensive led to a hardening of Muslim attitudes.

The Mongol invasions of the thirteenth century subjugated much of the Muslim world, a catastrophe only partially mitigated by the Mongols’ nominal conversion to Islam. Some thinkers, Ibn Taymiya (d. 1328) in particular, came to distinguish between true and false Muslims; and to give jihad new prominence by judging the validity of a person’s faith according to his willingness to wage jihad.

Nineteenth century “purification jihads” took place in several regions against fellow Muslims. The most radical and consequential of these was the Wahhabis' jihad in Arabia. Drawing on Ibn Taymiya, they condemned most non-Wahhabi Muslims as infidels (kafirs) and waged jihad against them.

and on and on and on and on and on. I hope your wife and her family are proud of these actions of islamic jihad.

 

I'll put the ball back in your court. Define a "True" Christian. You can quote all the Koran and Bible verses you want and still get nowhere, because both books and pretty much all religious doctrine is bogus. It's contradictory, it's outdated, it's lost it's original meaning. You are using flawed texts to justify your current hate and biases that might as well have been written by Walt Disney. Of course you're never going to find the answer in such convoluted sources as these. But you keep trying, because it justifies those feelings of insecurity you have to attribute to something other than your own life. Here's a big hug. :hug:

 

so then you must see no problem with homosexuality!! and lucky you...no ten commandments and moses...the bible must be a much faster read without the old testament.

and of course moderate muslim pick and choose...I never once said that islam didnt need to be reformed...many muslims agree with that...and they ARE muslims...just like reformed christians are christians. Some would say christians like you who have no problem with homosexuality and write off the old testament are not true christians...

 

So where are these Christians (as you say) that are packing themselves with C4 and killing the innocent in the name of Jesus?

Face it...99.9999% of all current terrorist activities committed in the name of religion are committed by muslims, not Jews, not Christians, not any other major religious groups other than those that follow islam as written and directed in your wife's koran.

Don't even try to correlate Chrisitan or Jewish terrorism with the numbers commited by islamic believers.

[Still looking up that lone gumman's name that killed an abortion doctor. Is that all you got?]

I have the vast numbers on my side. I have 14 centuries of jihad supporting my assertions on my side, and when you look at the ACTIONS of these animals...they just prove I am right!

Here's one of your wife's "brothers" just reading and following their "holy" koran:



Hey...their prophet started this mess and these people are just following his words, his life, and his actions!

...even in the 21st century!!

 

no, my wifes brother works in IT and isnt a muslim. My wifes father cashes checks, his brothers run a hotel and a cab service and dont do those kinds of things...I guess they arent REAL muslims...they sure do believe in Allah though and go to mosque...they are moderate though...

I guess they arent allowed by people like you to be moderate or they cant be REAL muslims...just like the pope said the only REAL christians are catholics...you sure are enlightened. :lol:

I think my point is clear...I do not disagree that there is a problem with islam and that christianity and the much of west has come much further in human rights...IMO the only thing I disagree with is that there are NO moderate muslims or that moderate muslims arent REAL muslims...nuff said on my part me thinks....

 

Matthew 5:17-18 (which is part of the Sermon on the Mount, by the way)

There are passages forbidding homosexuality in the New Testament, particularly in Paul's various letters.

The point I'm making is that all (Christians and others) sin and fall short of the glory of God.

 

But that's it?? That is all you have. Funny...I don't remember the last time a Christian killed a homosexual and himself with a vest full of explosives...but I do remember when islamic terrorists killed over a 150 school children in Belsan, Russia in the name of Allah!

There are 100's of passages in the koran calling for the conversion (or else), enslavement, taxing and/or killing of infidels. Again, the koran has an entire chapter dealing with "spoils of war" alone for God's....sorry...Allah's sake!

Sure...not all religions are perfect, but you have to look at the main core and belief of one religion against another and I would love to be convinced that Islam (which means surrender/submission to allah) is a "peaceful religion" when their words, their entire history, and their ACTIONS all suggest otherwise.

With over 7,000 islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11 alone resulting in one death for no other purpose than islamic jihad, I believe their actions as they follow these words of hate pretty much speak VOLUMES for themselves.

 

Thats the problem with christianity, it always contradicts itself...some could say that you NOT living by the old testament is going against the will of jesus himself...

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

clearly all of the Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

"Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

Jesus said “He that curseth father or mother, let him die...” (Matthew 15:4-7)

Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

“...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35



and yes midas...that is all I have...I have admitted several times that although BOTH religions have a gory bloody violent past...that christianity has reformed while islam has not...If you would read what I have said...I have said this many time over and over again...that there is a problem with islam and it needs reform like christianity has reformed from it very real bloody past that drove christians to kill those who did not believe the same way they did for so long....you can deny the blood soaked past of the christian church...that does not erase it....at one time they did to the jews exactly what extremists muslims would see done to them...they exterminated them and saw them as WORSE THAT MUSLIMS.

There are MANY muslims who are doing just that...and choose to follow a more moderate form of islam...if you do not accept this...what can I do? I call them reformers...you say they are not muslim...I certainly hope they become the face of a new islam. I hope it comes before it breads a new more hatefull christianity to oppose it.

Like I have said...there are violent passages in both religions...christians choose to follow the less violent new testament (though it still has its problems like accepting slavery). There are good muslims who do not kill, hate, or want to bomb...if you do not accept this...thats fine...I have never disputed that most terrorism is committed by muslims...I have tried to show WHY this might be the case and show that christians share the same bloody evil history...enlightenment came to them as it is comming to many muslims now that they are exposed to such ideas. I do not condone it but encourage a change in the religion instead of villifying all of them, even the moderates...You sound to me as hatefull as they are. Like you would see them all dead or converted and leave no room for reform and moderation.

There is nothing much else I can say...if you do not accept there are moderate muslims, then I can not force you to...

 

Well alrighty then...

First, these so called "moderate" muslims better start taking ACTION to go after the cancer that resides within their religion. This means no donations to mosques and groups like CAIR who funnel money to islamic jihad groups like Hamas and Hellzbullah. If one nickel ends up for islamic jihad, the U.S. should freeze all of their assets, liquidate them, and use the funds to fight against these islamic animals. This also means if "moderate" muslims see a fellow muslim committing acts of terror and jihad, THEY must bring these animals to justice.

I am sick and tired of these so-called-moderate-muslims who go AWOL when another muslim commits jihad. Worst yet, they "understand" these animal's actions and do nothing about it. On the flip side, when a Christian or Jew robs a bank, other Christians and Jews have no problem bringing these criminals to justice. The same cannot be said about "moderate" muslims who many times hide and harbor these animals.

This also means that "moderate" muslims must publically denounce all of the hate (in arabic on Arab-Must-See-TV) in their koran that drives this cancer's actions and the acts of their prophet who lived an entire life of war, forced conversion, ransom, enslavement and rape of little girls. Again, this is not the action of some muslim foot solidier, but the actions of the very prophet himself who's animal history must be addressed.

Only when "moderate" muslims demonstrate through ACTION that they are willing to police and destroy this cancer within their religion...well, the longer they wait, the cancer grows and guess what?

Us infidels will have to deal with this cancer on "OUR" terms.

Only then will I accept "moderate" muslims who willingly accept other faiths and give up their 1,400 years of freakin' jihad.

When signs like this disappear, I will accpet them...only then:

 

You lay that law down...not really sure what moderate muslims like my wifes family could do about it. Extremists muslims, as you know, are rather intolerant and violent (and have weapons and arent afraid to use them) and they are just humble businessmen trying to operate a business without getting killed, they dont own weapons and are not looking to fight anyone nor do I think they deserve to die at the hands of a zealot anymore than anyone else....They fully support hunting down and killing radical muslims it seems, they They are not rich or famous thus its hard for them to be heard. Though they have told everyone they know that terrorism disgusts them and they have raised healthy, nice children who are not extremists...They live in a small east texas town (probably the only muslim family there) and have made friends who seem to accept them...they pay taxes...I figure thats enough for me...I wont hold those nice people responsible for the actions of others any more than I hold my catholic mother responsible for rapists priests or all christians for this group:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

... but to each his own.

 

KHALIFAH FIESTA 2007

“The Muslim world has awakened from its slumber ... and is ready to resume its political destiny."

”From the darkness will emerge a new light."

Sign up now!

=


See the ACTIONS of millions and millions of muslims and it is clear why the world is in this mess. These people are just following their beloved koran and have NO desire to adapt to human civilization. Instead they wish to bring it back to the days of their pedophile prophet:

See how cute future jihadists are being raised from day one to hate and kill:







Meanwhile...what do the "moderate" muslims do with the cancer within Islam???....waiting....still waiting...NOTHING.

They "claim" that these animals only represent a "few" within their religion. They "claim" that these few muslims are trying to hijack their religion of peace, and you would think they have the numbers to deal with these animals, but do they? NO! They quietly keep to themselves while supporting these animals with money and safe haven.

I guess "moderate" muslims deep down wish to see koranic law for all.

ACTIONS...LOOK AT THEIR ACTIONS of these people....never what they say. It is a cancer that is growing and if you really want to battle this cancer, you either contain it, reduce it, or better yet, REMOVE it and KILL it. True Islam is a cancer of the civilized world.

The longer you wait, the worse this islamic cancers becomes then us infidels will have to deal with it on OUR terms!

 

To all of you appeasers out there, try applying some logic for ONCE!

Based upon polling data from islamic countires like Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Lebanon, and the most recent Palestinian elections, 60 to 70% of muslims worldwide are Salafists. That means that fundamentalist islam (true islam), the islam of virtually all terrorists, is not a fringe movement. For example, the 9/11 suicide bombers were Salafi Muslims as are 95% of the world's terrorists and 99.99% of Islamic terrorists.

[SIZE=+0]Iran's president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (I'm-in-the-mood-for-a-jihad), earned 62% of the popular vote. The most "moderate" islamic challenger garnered less than 20% support. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+0]The notion that the majority of Iranians are hostile to the Shia mullahs, and are poised for a revolution, is a myth.[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]

[/SIZE]Salafi Islam is the purest form of this religion. It is based entirely upon the oldest and most authentic islamic sources. Salafist muslims surrender to allah's, muhammad's (no praise to him), and the koran's authority so they are the antithesis of insurgents (meaning those who rebel against authority). While Salafist muslims highjacked airplanes and turned them into weapons of mass destruction, these islamic terrorists have not highjacked their religion...it IS their religion.


The moment you understand what allah allegedly said and muhammad did you will recognize that all "good" muslims are bad people to "true" muslims. That is because muhammad was a sexual pervert, thief, racist, slave trader, kidnapper, mass murderer, and terrorist.

Using the koranic definition, a "bad" muslim is someone who won't fight to spread islam. They are either ignorant of, or simply ignore the words of allah and deeds of muhammad. The koran describes these people as "hypocrites" in the 9th surah because they are good, peace-loving people. These bad, hypocritical, and peace-loving muslims were islam's first victims and they remain the religion's primary target. The best example of this is what is happening in Iraq today. We ought to care enough about these people to criticize the religion that terrorizes them into submission.

The appeasers of political correctness, the moral code of socialist, secular humanism, most often attack me based upon the following conclusion:

"I recognize that all "true" muslims are terrorists and most all terrorists are muslims."

These are irrefutable statements of fact, not opinion, which is why this verdict engenders so much wrath from the PC crowd and socialist-left-leaning liberals.

Let the personal attacks against me continue...meanwhile, 14 Centuries of Islamic Jihad continues...

 

338 men women and children of Beslan City Russia would attest that true muslim is a murderous b@stard. Oh and the people on airplanes brought down by Chechen true muslim terrorists(oops in west they "freedom fighters"

 

I don't call them Freedon Fighters, they're (Radical Islam/Muslims) simply ignorant superstitious filth.

Ben