Abortion Advocates Make Me Sick

I think we all believe animals commit filial infanticide because they don't believe the young will survive, not because they don't feel like having their current life trajectory changed by parenthood.

If you feel otherwise, my opinion of you will suffer a bit.

 

That's a loaded way to put it, but sure. What about their career? What if they just never want children? It's not that animals necessarily think the young can't/won't survive due to anything wrong with them, it's often that the parents are not in a position to provide for them adequately. Sound familiar? You can call it "hampering their social life" but the basic fact of the matter is they're not in a position to adequately raise a kid and don't have the arrogance to pretend they do.

That kind of attitude where people selfishly force themselves (and now others) into parenthood is part of why we live in a country where 1 in 6 children have issues with food insecurity.

 

I’m generalizing, of course, but we have food insecurity because today’s American shirks responsibility . . . Screw the consequences first and kill the consequences later. Everyone wants a solution from someone else, but “Not in my backyard”.

In the good ole days, if you made a mistake, you accepted responsibility and lived with it . . . Today, when one makes a mistake, he / she just turns tail, hands in the air, and walking away says, “Oh well . . . “

 

Wait. WHAT?!?!?! Who is forcing whom into parenthood? I, personally, have never forced a single person on this earth into parenthood. Have you? Has anyone on this forum? Speak up, if so. I don't know any of my friends, neighbors, associates, etc. who has ever forced anyone into parenthood.

In fact, I'm unaware of anyone in this country who has ever forced anyone into parenthood. Other than the occasional psycho you see on the news who kidnaps a young girl and rapes her then forces her to have the baby, I'm unaware of anyone who has ever forced another human being into parenthood.

As far as I'm aware, abortion is still perfectly legal in the states where it's legal. In fact, there are a lot of companies now who will pay their employees who want an abortion to go to another state to get it. They'll even pay their travel expenses, food, hotel rooms IN ADDITION to doing the same for a companion who wants to travel with them!

Now, in the states where abortion is illegal, the birthing module can simply go to another state to get it. Planned Parenthood might even consider picking up the expense since it will no longer be a federal tax burden upon the taxpaying citizens. (P.S.... remind me to admonish my government who is probably still giving money to Planned Parenthood).

Jane's Revenge (or whatever it's called; you know the violent anti-life group) can spend their money helping birthing modules get an abortion instead of spending their money on spray paint, bricks, molotov cocktails or any myriad other means of destruction.

Forced into parenthood? Nope.

 

Yeah OKC, ignoring the Wokie perspective is absolutely the right thing to do.

They can try twisting words and arguments every which way to suit their desires, but the only person who forces someone else into parenthood is a rapist. The only people ever forced into parenthood were raped.

No others qualify.

 

Haven’t you and I talked about this subject before?
http://www.partisanlines.com/threads/scotus-draft-leak.53199/page-4

 

We have, I disagree with your take

 

Well of course you do! You couldn’t defend your response then, and you won’t be able to now. Animals don’t abort their offspring via filial infanticide. Infanticide happens after birth, now doesn’t it? So it has no relationship to abortion that happens before birth.

 

I did defend it. In fact I even already addressed that in this thread:

"Sadly they lack the technology to do it at what we'd consider an ethical time"

Also they lack conceptual understanding of what a pregnancy, life, and death are, but that's a bit beside the point. Miscarriage is a poor correlate to abortion as it doesn't address the reason for failed pregnancy. Filial infanticide is a failed pregnancy, often because the parent is not in a position to raise the children safely/effectively but the body is technically capable of carrying it to term. That is a much better equivalent to abortion in humans than miscarriage is.

I also want to make clear that this comparison is just for abortions where potential parents are not in a position to raise children in an attempt to demonstrate it is naturalistic to not be ready. There are plenty of other legitimate reasons to have abortions, but it's not really any of the state's business why someone would want one.

If you want to get even more philosophical, I don't agree that having a "naturalistic" correlate has any bearing on morality. Humans too often forget we are animals, anything we should choose to do is definitionally something happening in "nature"

 

A wild animal has no more "ethical" right to kill its offspring after birth because it is ill-prepared to raise it / them than does a human being. A lazy animal which doesn't feel like attending to its young, or which fails to migrate to fertile feeding grounds, or to a less predatory environment is no different than a human which doesn't want to meet the call of parenthood for whatever reason.

The difference? Animals are primitive creatures which do not make ethics-based decisions.

Humans in civilized societies are held to account by other humans. Respect for human life is a hallmark of civil society. I'm not sure that there aren't exceptions in the animal world, but I think I can safely say that the vast majority of animal species do not ostracize or otherwise penalize those which kill their young.

You want a civilized society? In for a penny, in for a pound!

I suppose then, you endorse all manner of human savagery because they too are "definitionally something happening in nature"?

Stop speaking out both sides of your mouth, and get honest with yourself!

 

Of course not, just pointing out the fallacy in trying to look for natural correlates to our behavior as an appeal to morality.

 

Thank you for another slap down on this imbecilic narrative.

 

Okay, but you understand it's not my narrative right? You guys keep going down the road of "abortions are wrong because animals don't do it, it's not natural" or falsely trying to equivocate miscarriage to abortion, so I'm following that to it's conclusion to make a point.

 

Animals do not have abortions. They have infanticide. Are you advocating infanticide? JN is the dumbazz that equated miscarriage with abortion, now didn’t he? Show us a cognitive test for mammals that shows us reasoning on the level of abortion.

 

I'm comparing motivations for not entering parenthood. Not the act itself, just the outcomes and pressures that lead to that. I'm merely saying we're smart enough and have the technology to end a pregnancy before it becomes infanticide.

 

Cool, then we should have the intelligence, personal responsibility and self control to use the publicity funded and readily available (not like tampons or baby formula) contraceptives, to not get pregnant in the first place….. Correct?

 

If they were 100% effective, there would be far less abortions. One exciting thing coming soon that will get us closer is male hormonal birth control.

Redundancy is going to be key. If both partners are taking birth control that's 99% effective, that will reduce unwanted pregnancies from 1% chance to 0.01% chance.

 

You said the key words “both are taking birth control that’s 99% effective “. If you are not working, unable to raise a child, or did not both have birth control surgeries, not having sex is 100% effective, now isn’t it? Your problem is you don’t believe in personal responsibility. If contraceptives, when used responsibility are 99% effective, and rape and incest continue at the extremely current low rates, why was there 930, 000 abortions in 2020?

 

I think you already know this, but rape and incest don't account for all that many abortions, even if they are an important subset. 99% effectiveness is actually really low, especially on the population level. As an aside, in the beginning of the pandemic when we were seeing 2% death rate, that's why it was so alarming. 1 in 50 dead or 1 in 100 contraceptives failing is massive when you consider how many people there are, and not a very comfortable dice roll.

The thing is, I hold not wanting to be a parent is a perfectly legitimate reason for an abortion. It's not the preferable course of action or a first line of defense, but if you're not ready to be a parent then abortion is taking personal responsibility. If you can't adequately provide for a kid, how is it better to force yourself to bring them into the world and make both them and yourself suffer? I also think it's wrong and insensitive to picture abortions as the easy way out. It doesn't give credit to how invasive and difficult the procedure is for the people undergoing it. It's never an easy decision, but I hold it should be the person going through its decision rather than the state's.

 

I can recall many instances in history where one group of humans were considered less than human because they did not look like their accusers. You say lump of cells, I say human.

I really don't care if you kill your offspring, just understand what you are doing.