11 Sep 01, 5 Year Anniversary and Conspiracy Theories

Chuckle, it is a very borderline politicized position and could go either way.

Ben

 

Nothing comparable going on today that should make people frightened? Have you seen ANY beheading videos lately with the Islamic Fascists yelling "Allah Akhbar" as they carve your liberal head off? Keep yelling "The Muslim's aren't coming!" "The Muslim's aren't coming!". Before you know it you and the rest of us will be fighting for our lives and not arguing on these political boards. I know you don't believe that could happen. You and the other liberals think being a hegemony is a bad thing. Maybe you would rather Iran or N. Korea should be the worlds Super Power so that Bush would fail. I honestly think you just don't see the threat posed to all of us right now, and that is your right, but don't hold it against me for wanting my country to win this war and ALL wars no matter who is in office. Because it sure beats the alternative of seeing my wife wear a burka and me speaking Arabic. I sure won't question why we are being wiped off the map from these animals, they will be asking themselves that same question.

As we say in the Marine Corps, "I won't die for my country, instead the enemy will die for his country".

Change from what? Republican to Democrat? ROFL You have to be smoking that crap again. Why would anyone want to change to the losing liberal party? I see you are still trying to propagandize the willing weak moderate minds in here Cloudedass. Your rhetoric is getting very old.

The U.S. has dealt with Commies like you before and it looks like we will have to do it again within my lifetime. At least my children won't have to deal with it when this generation gets it under control. Just give war a chance and stop the spread of this Fascist Muslim idiology. Oh, that is right you don't believe terrorism is that big a deal. It isn't nearly as bad as accidental car fatalities as you stated so brilliantly on these forums. It figures you don't appreciate the Freedoms men like me have fought for you to have. It just angers me when people on these forums post Anti-American views on a daily basis just to provide "the other side" of the important issues of our time. That surely hasn't help bring American together when we need to show unity the most.

 

Chill Dude, Chill out. They're just posting stuff to get you riled up and booted from the board. Your taking the bait I'm sad to say. I'll admit if I was on the receiving end of some of your angry threats in response to their perfectly "LEGAL" opinions I'd be following up on it... Relax, other people are getting tired of it. It's no crime to be vocal about your political stance even if it's Democrat that's what you and I both swore to protect. Never forget it.

"That Others may Live" and "First In, Last Out" were mottos which were drilled into my head for many years.

Take Care
Ben

 

I am hoping you meant Democracy and not Democrat! It is getting harder and harder to want to protect these Dem. Liberals day in and day our countering their ignorance regarding Conspiracy Theories and Anti-Americanism. All they do is hate hate hate and it is sickening. I don't want to hear their sides anymore because it is all based on LIES and HATE. Nothing else. They are modern day traitors and they don't even realize it.

 

Man if you dont want to hear it dont read it just put them on Ignore, all you are doing is winding yourself up and giving them ammo. I hate to say this but your posts are steadily becoming more agressive. They are fully entitled to have there views as are you, you live in a Democracy not a totaliterian State. You are begining to sound just like the Muslims you profess to hate, they too want to shut up every one who disagrees with them 'DISSENTERS DIE', 'BEHEAD THE INFADEL' ETC ETC

De Orc

 

JW, a Democrat, Republician, Independent, Agnostic, Athiest, etc. are all Americans. We (you and I) are Americans and were American Military members who SWORE to protect our way of life. And freedon of Religion and Political Affiliation are aspects of that way of life. It was out duty. I for one cannot forget it so quickly (2003).

Man, the enemy is hiding behind a sham religion called Islam. We need to band together with all the peace loving peoples of the world and learn to accept the differences our neighbors with SIMILAR values live by. Fellow Americans/British/Austrailians/Canadians/Japanese/Polish/Danish/Germans, etc, must prevail in this epic struggle. The world as we know it is at stake.

Ben

 

dangerous hyperbole.

 

Lefty,

I'll keep this short and to the point. I'm not afraid. I'm sorry that you are.

The change question is important. I'm not talking about changing political parties. I'm talking about changing from a Republic to any other form of government, all in the name of fear and security. I don't want my kids growing up in a dictatorship, and that is more important to me than who rules a slice of desert in the Middle East.

I appreciate freedom a lot, which is why I oppose any attempt to trash the Bill of Rights. The Constitution is not incompatible with freedom and safety. It is necessary to freedom and safety.

 

Danr, you still haven't cleared up where you stand on this issue:

?????????????????????
Well now, this requires an explanation right now. Here we are, the fifth anniversary of the attacks of September 11th, the growing number of 9/11 conspiracy theorists are out in force. A new Scripps Howard University poll found that 36 percent of Americans suspect that the United States government had a hand in those horrible attacks. Theories range from explosives being placed in the buildings to air force jets being ordered not to pursue the hijacked planes. None of these theories addresses how a conspiracy of this magnitude could be pulled off and then covered up for five years or even why the government would want to do it. Here‘s what I don‘t get. If you really believe that your government was involved in killing 3000 of its own citizens for no apparent reason, just to be cruel or to provide a pretext for invading Iraq to get Iraqi oil or for some insane other reason. If you really believe that, how can you live in this country? How can you pay taxes to a government that would do something like that? Why haven‘t you left at full speed for Canada or France? There are only one of two explanations, one, you don‘t really believe that or two, you believe but you‘re just so amoral you‘re willing to stay here to enjoy the benefits of America even though the government is a mass murdering government. There is something very wrong with you in my view if you believe that and are still here.
?????????????????????????????

This should be interesting, LOL... I also challenge you to uncloak your vital data.

Ben

 

If I were a talk show you could and would just ignore me. I am perfectly alright in my state of being, but these attacks on our President and Country are getting old. I will address what I feel is total BS, which is mostly what these Libs post on a daily basis. I dont want to shut them up I want to expose them for what they are. Cowards! I want them to be humiliated on a daily basis as long I keep logging in, since that is what they do on a daily basis. De Orc, why don't you ask these Muslim fascists to cool there Anti-American rhetoric instead of my defense of my country? I am assuming it is because you aren't a U.S. citizen.

 

I will show my age now and say I had even served under that immoral and shamelessl President Clinton. Back then I didnt care less what party was in office, I went where they needed me the most.

I alson cannot forget easily when our nation has been getting attacked on a daily basis by terrorists and by enemies inside our nation as we speak. Some people in here say that is nonsense, but terrorists and liberals need to be dealt with and humiliated as much as possible to point out there ignorant and deadly ways.

 

That is what worries me, you not being worried about our enemies planning attacks on us.

See, again you are talking in what ifs! We aren't a Dictatorship. Why are you so worried about the government spying on Americans who are talking to Al Qaeda? Are you talking to them? Are you scared you will be rounded up? Do you take money from terrorists?

Do you think the Constitution will be around when you are speaking Arabic? Do you think the lifestyles we live now will be afforded to you when you are wearing a robe? Some think all this FREEDOM is somehow granted to us at birth! You have freedoms because wars were won using unthinkable tactics that broke the will of the enemy. Liberals aid the terrorists on a daily basis and it is sickening.

 

Ben,

I'm the last person here who would want to defend anything Danr says. I don't consider him a serious poster. But your question is very existential. Everyone has to live someplace. This is where we are. This is where our families live. This is where we own property and have business interests. This is where my parents are burried. Why should anyone let the temporary occupant of the White House dictate where we call home? So there are a lot of explanations other than the two you thought of. Living here while being disappointed in our government is not amoral. Should George Washington have moved to Canada? Should Thomas Jefferson have moved to France? They chose, instead, to confront bad government and work for change. The reasons should be easy to comprehend.

I don't like the word 'conspiracy.' It isn't accurate. I think a lot of things are planned, and not all of them known immediately. I guess a conspiracy is anyone elses plan where we were not included in the planning. Has the US engaged in this sort of thing before? Perhaps. We have, for example....

...the sinking of the USS Maine in order to get us into war with Spain. It turned out to be a coal dust explosion when investigated by Admiral Hyman Rickover in 1975 using data recovered from an examination of the wreck.

...the attack on Pearl Harbor. There is a lot of evidence that Roosevelt knew about it in advance and withheld information from Admiral Kimmel. Congress recently exonerated Kimmel posthumously because of the overwhelming evidence that he was set up.

...the attack on th USS Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin, which never occurred but was a good enough lie to enable the USA to enter the Viet Nam war in a big way.

...the first Gulf War. April Glaspie was sent by George Bush I to let Saddam Hussein know that the US objected to his designs on Kuwait, but would not oppose them militarily. Saddam fell for it.

...the photos of the Trnopolje concentration camp in Yugoslavia were used as part of the justification for the US bombing campaign against Serbia. The photographer faked the photographs. There was no concentration camp and the people in the photos admitted the hoax after the war.

...Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack against the "chemical weapons" factory in the Sudan. The CIA assured everyone that soil tests proved the presence of weapons-grade material. But it turned out that the tests were faked and the facility was an asprin factory. The owner of the factory sued the US government for damages.

Does any of this demonstrate in any way that the government had anything to do with the attacks on 9/11? Nope. But maybe it explains why many people are skeptical of any claims to the contrary. Look at the historical track record. There have been enough stunts pulled in the past, some requiring significant coverups, to make it a reasonable response to view these things with a healthy dose of skepticism until they are examined closely by independent [i.e., non-governmental] experts.

I think that's all that is happening right now. But admittedly, the media will find the conspiracy fanatics and nutcases to interview on TV. It's good for ratings and the American media doesn't seem very interested in the truth these days.

 

How many of you remember this little story? Bear with me and take the time to read and enjoy, please

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
One day Chicken Little was walking in the woods when -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell on his head

"Oh my goodness!" said Chicken Little. "The sky is falling! I must go and tell the king."
On his way to the king's palace, Chicken Little met Henny Penny. Henny Penny said that he was going into the woods to hunt for worms.

"Oh no, don't go!" said Chicken Little. "I was there and the sky fell on my head! Come with me to tell the king."

So Henny Penny joined Chicken Little and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Cocky Locky, who said, "I'm going to the woods to hunt for seeds."

"Oh no, don't go!" said Henny Penny. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king."

So Cocky Locky joined Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Goosey Poosey, who was planning to go to the woods to look for berries.

"Oh no, don't go!" said Cocky Locky. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king." So Goosey Poosey joined Cocky Locky, Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along as fast as they could.

Then who should appear on the path but sly old Foxy Woxy.

"Where are you going, my fine feathered friends?" asked Foxy Woxy. He spoke in a polite manner, so as not to frighten them.

"The sky is falling!" cried Chicken Little. "We must tell the king."

"I know a shortcut to the palace," said Foxy woxy sweetly. "Come and follow me."
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Now think real hard and tell me which one is playing each of the staring rolls in this play? This can be fun so take your time.
Does anyone see a sequence of actions here in the story, and the topic of discussion in this thread? Just thought I would ask.

 

Neither I nor anyone else knows ALL of the detail of what happened on that horrible day, but I do know that the 911 commission have disavowed the 911 report, therefore the official story itself is not valid (basically anyone who is not an extreme right winger is left out hanging in the wind here by the lack of any valid investigation). Also I can see that the Bush mafia have been able to advance their agenda greatly due to this horrible crime.

 

jwevansv Kindly go back a few threads and read my replies to Islamic coin, then come back and tell me that I dont tell theses 'Muslim Facists' were to get off, as for me not been a US citizen this should be fairly obviouse as in one of your own threads I offer you the services of our Prime Minister to be your Prez LOL
You say yourself that you live in a democracy yet you still seem unable to grasp that others are allowed to disagree with not only your views but those of your President, he is a man who is falible and makes mistakes same as the rest of us, he is not god.
Danr for once try to answer a question without relying on links. Do you honestly believe that your Gov is cabable of organising the attacks on 9/11 without any body going to the press or other major leaks?? do you honestly credit them with that much power LOL

De Orc :eat:

 

LOL, I too recall Bubba, all eight years of him and a good deal of Reagan. I joined up right after college in 82.

Ben

 

Some of your points are open for discussion, and some aren't the way I've read and heard things. One which isn't open is the culpability of Pres Roosevelt and the Pearl Harbor issue. A more imaginative individual would have dug deeper and found Billy Mitchell gave us ample warning in 1924...

The USS Maddox story is one which has been told abound conspiracy campfires for yeas as well as the USS Maine. I offer a few simple observations.
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Having operated off the west coast for 2 years, from March 1962, Maddox departed Long Beach 13 March 1964 for another tour with the 7th Fleet. At first steaming with fast carrier groups in the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea, she headed south 18 May and established patrol off the coast of South Vietnam.

On 31 July she commenced the first leg of a patrol in the Tonkin Gulf. Initially a routine patrol, it developed into a defensive action with global repercussions. On 2 August, Maddox, cruising in international waters, was closed in a torpedo run by three North Vietnamese torpedo boats. During the ensuing skirmish, in which torpedoes were launched at Maddox, the destroyer put two of the Communist boats out of action with direct hits.

This attack, at first assumed to have been in error, was proven deliberate within 48 hours. On the 4th, North Vietnamese patrol boats again attack Maddox, which by this time had been joined by Turner Joy. Early detection and skillful evasion permitted the destroyers to break contact with the first assault units sent against them on that date. But, little over an hour later, enemy torpedo boats closed in again, launching torpedoes. Maddox commenced firing starshells for illumination, while Turner Joy opened fire on the attacking boats. The fighting continued for 2 1/2 hours before being broken off by the North Vietnamese. Retaliation in the form of air strikes on North Vietnamese patrol boat bases and their supporting oil storage depots came within a few. hours. For this action both ships were awarded the Navy Unit Commendation. Following the incident, the destroyers returned to their patrol, completing it on the 8th. Maddox then resumed carrier operations until departing for Long Beach 17 September.

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/destroy/dd731txt.htm
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And, the USS Maine. That would be a coal bunker fire. Lot's different than a coal dust explosion... I invite you to read the last few sentences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Maine_(ACR-1)
Coal bunker fire theory
Since the time of the explosion in 1898, many advocates stating that an internal explosion had sunk the Maine based their conclusion on the coal bunker fire theory. Supporters of this theory believe that spontaneous combustion of the coal in bunker A16 created a fire that detonated the nearby magazines. Spontaneous combustion of coal was a fairly frequent problem on ships built after the American Civil War. This type of fire occurs when the surfaces of freshly broken coal are exposed to air. The coal surface oxidizes, producing heat. When the coal reaches a temperature of about 180 degrees, the coal will begin to burn. The heat from the fire could have transferred to the magazines, which would have triggered the explosion.
Spontaneous combustion was not an uncommon problem on ships built in the latter part of the 19th century. Several ships sustained damage during the Spanish-American War when the bituminous coal in their bunkers ignited. These fires were difficult to detect because they could smolder for hours at low heat, giving off no smoke or flame or raising the temperature high enough to trigger the alarm systems on board these ships. Reports indicate that the last time bunker A16 had been inspected was at 8:00 a.m. on February 15, so there was ample time for a coal bunker fire to smolder into a disaster.
However, several problems exist with the coal bunker fire theory. The Maine never had an instance of spontaneous combustion on board, as did so many other ships of that time, and out of all the ships that had experienced spontaneous combustion, none was reported to have sustained serious damage. The type of coal carried by the Maine was New River coal, which is classified as low volatile bituminous coal and was not generally known to spontaneously combust. Bunker A16 was not situated by a boiler or any other external heat source, and normally spontaneous combustion does not occur unless there is a heat source to speed up the process. When Bunker A16 was inspected the morning of the disaster, the temperature was only 59 degrees Fahrenheit, and the Maines' oversensitive temperature sensor system did not indicate any dangerous rise in temperature. The discipline on the Maine was excellent, and regular inspections of coal bunkers for hazards, as well as the implementation of precautions for preventing bunker fires, were diligently carried out under the supervision of the cautious executive officer of the Maine, Richard Wainwright. These idiosyncrasies related to the coal bunker fire theory are what give rise to the constant debate of this argument’s legitimacy.
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Now lets look at war crimes.

“Fake” Camp Claim Demolished

Prosecution corrects expert witness’s belief that ITN’s footage of Trnopolje camp inmates was faked.

By Karen Meirik in The Hague (TU 343, 16 February 2004)

Prosecutors in the case against Radoslav Brdjanin last week cross-examined Paul Shoup, the history professor who was called by the defence to give an assessment of the origins of the Bosnian war and the influence of both sides’ propaganda...
http://www.iwpr.net/?s=f&p=tri&o=29ed8c521cf6cf767ccf704becf7d9c8&apc_state=henl

Nothing going on here, "move along, move along..."
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Now the First Guld War. I remember it so well. Chemical agent markers going off everyplace and constantly in MOPP-4. Kinda glad I wore my stuff now. I've had two friends who died of rare cancers over the past 15 years. Accidently urinating in a Mosque (foot washing trough) thinking it was for that purpose...

So many stories of what April Glaspie said and didn't say are running around it makes one head spin. The one your reffering to was posted by the NY Times.
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Clinton's asprin attack. Well, it was Clinton, LOL...
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Each of the above counterpoints are the way I see the things. Many other Americans see things differently. No harm in that either...

Ben

 

And your point is??? Oh, the 9/11 report, you can get it for $4.99 at K-Mart in town here. Never read the thing. I formulated my own opinions. Just goes to show you the type of information one gets when using torture...

B

 

Ben,

But you can see why Americans are acting rationally when requesting more proof from their government for any claims made.

The USS Maddox was involved in aggressive intelligence gathering in coordination with actual attacks by South Vietnam and the Laotian Air Force against targets in North Vietnam. There was no attack by torpedo boats against the USS Maddox. Captain John J. Herrick, the task force commander in the Gulf, cabled Washington DC that the report was the result of an "over-eager" sonar man who had picked up the sounds of his own ship's screws and panicked. His report was ignored.

Captain Sigsbee, the commander of the USS Maine, urged that no assumptions of enemy attack be made until there was a full investigation of the cause of the explosion. For this, Captain Sigsbee was attacked in the press for "refusing to see the obvious". The Admiral's investigation is considered the final verdict on the incident.

We may never know the truth about what went on in Yugoslavia. Of course the government and prosecution will always defend what they said and did regardless of what investigators uncover. That's the whole point. How can the average person know the truth when it changes as time passes?

But anyway, there is a pattern here if you look for it - AGGREVATE, FACILITATE, INSULATE. It's almost a formula-like approach used repeatedly by the government to push things in the direction they want. This doesn't prove a thing, other than sometimes it pays to treat all reports with a degree of skepticism.

Anyway, that's about as far as this thread can go without becomming repetitive.