Should religion be outlawed from schools?

Why should your religion be any more special than my non-belief?

 

Why should my tax dollars go to injecting religion into schools my children (if I had any) would attend? That is so insensitive I hardly know how to respond!

 

But it IS recited at some public schools, and that is what I am talking about in this thread. I'd still like a response to my original question - if we allow the lord's prayer to start the day at a public school, what does that do to the "religious freedom" of non-christian students?

I never mentioned the Pledge of Allegiance, and I am not proposing that it be eliminated. (Although the present form is a corrupted version of the original, with "under god" being added during the Red Scare of the '50s as a form of McCarthyist propaganda.) The Pledge of Allegiance in its original context is not a prayer or a religious rite of any kind, it is secular oath of American nationalism. I would like to see "under god" removed, but that's a fight for another day and not the topic I am discussing here.

If you think Christians believe in the same god as non-christians, I think you are fooling yourself. Besides, the point of "freedom of religion" is not just the freedom to practice any religion - it is also the freedom to choose whether or not to practice religion.

 

And you haven't answered my question, HollysMom: What if instead of a Lord's Prayer each morning in a public school it was an affirmation that god does not exist? How would you feel if your child were made to recite that?

 

I would argue that atheism is a religion in and of itself. Personally, I don't think that anyone should be imposing his or her beliefs on anyone else, but I'm not in favor of bans of things that are protected by the Constitution. No one is forced to participate in religious activities at any school, even religion-based schools. Even in my Psychology of Religion course, given at the Baptist university that I attend, we were given the option of not attending another faith's service as required by one assignment. (The course, I might add, is required for my course of study, but not all courses of study.)

 

pk, in the vast majority of schools (I can't speak for them all), the people who do not share the beliefs stated in the Lord's Prayer are allowed to sit or to to pray in their own way--or not to pray at all. I think we worry too much about all-inclusiveness in this country and are at risk of losing our identity as Americans for that reason.

 

Atheism is a religion like baldness is a hair color. The word literally translates to "without religious belief". How you can get the idea that atheism is a religion I have no idea. Having everyone recite a prayer at the beginning of a school day guarantees a skewed playing field. Do you really think that a child in a family of another faith isn't already singled out by having to leave the room during prayer? Seriously?

And you STILL haven't answered my question, HollysMom: What if instead of a Lord's Prayer each morning in a public school it was an affirmation that god does not exist? How would you feel if your child were made to recite that?

 

"I think we worry too much about all-inclusiveness in this country and are at risk of losing our identity as Americans for that reason."

And just what identity is that?

 

Take a look at the practice of atheism. Take a look at the practice of religion. Decide for yourself.

I'm not answering your question because it relies on a logical fallacy. Since no one is forced to recite the Lord's Prayer, you're creating a false dichotomy and setting up a Straw Man.

 

So you acknowledge this is blatant Christian privilege - good. Next question, why have the lord's prayer at all? If the non-christians can be allowed to "sit or to to pray in their own way" - why can't the christians do that too? Wouldn't that make more sense? Nobody would feel they are being excluded that way.

 

There is no "practice of atheism". It is simply a position on the proposition of the existence of a deity. Thus, there is nothing to decide. Do you actually know any atheists?

Okay, change it to this: The public school your child attends has at the beginning of every school day an affirmation of the non-exixstence of god. You, as parent, are given the option that your child can recite, not recite by remain in the room, or leave the room during which the remaining children. I ask one last time. How would you feel about this? And don't give me the straw man argument this time.

 

No, pk. That's your interpretation of what I said. I'm sorry that this thread is turning into a battle instead of a discussion. However, at the risk of inciting riot: the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Prayer has long been connected with our schools and our government. Freedom of religion refers to the inability of the government to impose a single religion on the nation, not the eradication of religion. Christianity is not a religion.

 

Interesting. Then why does the Treaty of Tripoli say this: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."? Where in the Constitution does it say that the United States is a "Christian nation"?

 

You say there is not a practice of atheism. Explain the Invisible Pink Unicorn to me. Explain the German man who was allowed to wear a spaghetti strainer on his head for a drivers' license photo. Pish.

As to your question, am I living in a Christian community or an atheist one? And, my simple response to that activity is that I would remove my child from that school and home school. Problem solved.

I'm sorry, SA--I'm having a hard time keeping up with your one-line rejoinders. In any case, I have to study for my Psychological Aspects of Aging final. I really don't have time for you any longer.

 

Christianity IS a religion. Please don't make nonsensical statements. If Christianity is a 'relationship' with Jesus, then atheism is a relationship with reality.

From the Wikipedia: Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.

If Chrisitanity doesn't fit this definition of religion, then I'm a squirrel.

 

"You say there is not a practice of atheism. Explain the Invisible Pink Unicorn to me. Explain the German man who was allowed to wear a spaghetti strainer on his head for a drivers' license photo. Pish."

You're kidding me, right? You do realize that these are meant as parodies? Please tell me you do. NO ONE can be that obtuse...

"As to your question, am I living in a Christian community or an atheist one?"

I fail to see how that matters.

"And, my simple response to that activity is that I would remove my child from that school and home school. Problem solved."

I didn't ask what you would do. I asked "how would you feel." Would you feel that your rights had been violated? It seems to me that opting for home schooling would amount to cowardice.

 

If I disagree that strongly, then home schooling is the only option. However, the reason I ask about the hypothetical society would be this:

If I am living in an atheist society, then I need to respect the majority opinion and sit down and pray--or remove my child from school. If I am living in a Christian society, then I need to fight having the opinions of the few imposed upon me--or remove my child from school. However, I will point out that there is ample historical evidence of what happens in a nation when religion is forbidden in a society. Look at all of the Eastern Orthodox Christians who hid icons on the back of paintings and photos and hung them facing the wall in order to preserve them and their right to pray, following the rise of the Communists in Russia. Look at the decline of that society over the years. Religion might be considered "the opiate of the masses," but it is also part of the glue that holds a nation together.

And now, I really must go. I have a really decent GPA in a tough program and I won't put it at risk on your account. btw, I'd really take a close look at that definition of religion. Both atheism and veganism really do fit it.

 

"If I am living in an atheist society, then I need to respect the majority opinion and sit down and pray--or remove my child from school."

Wrong answer! The actions made by representatives of PUBLIC institutions are NOT governed by the majority. Their actions are governed by the CONSTITUTION! This is exactly why constitutions exist in the first place! Why is it Canadians understand the US Constitution better than most Americans do? Goodness....

No one is sanctioning the outlawing of religion, least of all atheists. We of all people understand sectarian prejudice from the Christian majority. PK_Boomer would argue that we shouldn't even describe ourselves as atheists because that is describing what we are not, not what we are. Philosophically speaking, I agree. After all, we do not have a word for people who don't believe Elvis is still running around.

But the idea that religion is required for national cohesion is bollocks (to borrow a great term from across the Pond). The happiest that most stable societies are the LEAST religions, not the most. Religiosity correlates to higher rates of murder, violent crime, spousal and child abuse, teen suicide, teen pregnancy, teen STD transmission, etc. The least religious societies such as the Netherlands and Sweden (which have maybe 10% of the population believing in the existence of a god) are the best societies to live in. Religion is demonstrably a divisive force, not a cohesive one. It breeds in-group/out-group dynamics that I have witnessed personally. It never ceases to astound me the change in someone's view of me the moment I self-identify as an atheist. People map their preconceived notion of what an atheist is onto me that probably doesn't apply to any atheist, living or dead. You did it too. You have a preconceived idea that we really do worship the FSM. I wonder if you can be convinced that we eat babies on Christmas Day, too. The guy in Switzerland fought for his right to wear his sacred colander to prove a point, not because the colander is really sacred. And it's a damn good point he made. They required him to undergo psychiatric testing to allow him to have his driver's license picture taken with it on. They don't do that for someone wearing a yamulke or a turban, I'm sure. That's clearly discriminatory. I think the Church of the FSM is hilarious.

Atheism does not fit the wikipedia definition at all. There are no beliefs with atheism (the very meaning of the word atheism) and thus can not be a religion by definition. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is very amusing, but I doubt there is an atheist on the planet that takes it seriously. It is simply a parody to mock religion. If any atheist DID believe in it, that person wouldn't be an atheist! So, no. Atheism really does not fit any definition of the word "religion", let alone that one. As I said earlier, atheism is a religion just like baldness is a hair color.

And please don't equate atheism with communism. I am not a communist. Communism is really just a godless religion, very dogmatic and absolutist, which is what makes it dangerous.

 

I believe in love. We should teach math, science, reading, writing, the arts and love in school. But don't take me for a softie, I believe in love but I know reality. My oldest son was given a 22 rifle as a grad. present from elementary school and he will be getting his first shot gun for grad middle school. But I do think love, understanding, acceptance should be taught as was as target practice and hand to hand.

 

Religion is present in schools now and as it will be present as long as there are believers who attend schools. I don't quite get your point.