There's a thread at the "Contests" forum in which I offered rolls of counterstamped nickels to the person who could provide the correct context of eleven different quotes from Thomas Jefferson. (thread at http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=20574 ... congratulations to Spiralstreet and Slyjoh!) There was also an earlier thread about these and other counterstamped nickels at http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=19819. Since there were political overtones to the contest, USS656 suggested we might take it over here to this forum. To recap... Recently I've had one member, a veteran and current government employee, send me a private-message letting me know that they were offended by the above-referenced contest. I wonder if many other people feel this way. Basically... I wonder what possible problem someone could have with the phrase "NO MORE LIES". Are lies EVER a good thing? Does the TRUTH matter so little to us now that we simply accept lying by our leaders as both natural and necessary? And since no particular target is named... the referent could be Clinton's lies as well as anyone else's... what possible offense could be taken except by those who lie or support the use of lies as policy? Then there is "NO MORE WAR". Could it be that there are actually people who WANT war? Is this even possible? Surely nobody who has looked death in the eyes or seen and smelled the horror of a battlefield could seek out war by choice, except perhaps in a fey spirit of vengeance. I selected the Jeffersonian quotes specifically to point out what sort of international policy our founding fathers sought for our future and their legacy. If anyone bothers to actually peruse the extensive collection of his writings it becomes very clear that in his view war was to be avoided at all costs except as a last resort in dire self-defense. He even went so far as to borrow money from bankers in Holland to buy off Napoleon in order to avoid war with France. (We call this the Louisiana Purchase... read about it... it worked!). So it seems entirely appropriate to call forth the wisdom of the founding fathers as we debate the path that their nation... OUR nation... shall take. And to do so with counterstamped coins is just a revival of a long tradition. I suggest that Lies and Wars are strongly linked in a web of mutual causality. Whose lies do we refer to? Well... that is a matter for debate and discussion is it not? Therefore handing people this nickel is useful as a way of engaging others in meaningful discussion, no matter what their political affiliation. You might be amazed at the conversations this little thing can spark when you hand it to somebody and say: So here's my five cents worth! Be well! Tom "Peace is our most important interest, and a recovery from debt" T.J. 1801
Tom, First off, thanks for being one of the saner voices out there. So much of what is "discussed" here is just regurgitated politically biased sound bites from either side of the political spectrum Genuine debate is the exception, not the rule. Many people here seem completely unaware of the difference. Your counterstamping project is literally putting your money where your mouth is instead of like so many folks here putting their mouth where they ought to be putting their money-Away. I was unaware of your Jefferson contest but I don't actually participate in many of them anyway. I have been re-reading R.B. Bernstein's Thomas Jefferson lately and his insights still amaze me. To think he lived over 200 years ago and that there are so many people today that don't have his type of wisdom and unique perspective. Least of which our leaders. Again, thanks for another sane perspective that isn't totally influenced by the latest sound bite coming across the local news station.
I'll second moen's sentiments about sanity and regurgitated sound bites. Meanwhile, back on topic, I was actually more offended by Jefferson being on the coin than the counterstamped message. Don't get me wrong, Jefferson is by far my favorite politician, its just that he was a created-equal and should not be deified. His ideas; concepts; ideology -- sure. But not the man. He was only equally man. I believe he would have approved of your undertaking.
I dont care if you counter stamp coins with your political message but I also dont think you are so naive to think that people who might get upset about 'no more lies' and 'no more war' are people who LIKE lies and war. I think you are a very bright guy thus I think you know that when you take the time to stamp on US currency 'no MORE lies' that you are taking the stance that certain people who others might support strongly are liars...and they might not agree. Please do not go into a frenzy and start posting proof that Bush or others have lied, my intent is not to debate this...it is to say that these people are, of course, NOT pro lying...but they support the people you insinuate ARE lying...now if you weren’t insinuating that our current administration and government are lying and are liars...then I stand corrected. As for the war...again...there ARE people who are pro-war...as in pro-war on terrorism...pro-war to take out a dictator...and I am sure there are people who just like war...but in this case, again...these people support CERTAIN wars and indeed DO see some war as either good, or important. I support war on terror if not some of the ways we have gone about it..I supported the war in Afghanistan...I would support other wars that helped rid the world of killers and terrorists like the the Taliban...Its great to be anti-war but then its also just a fact that there are people who will kick the crap out of you and cut your throat as you sit-in for peace. No war would be lovely, and of course since there is war going on that the US is involved with…It is not a leap to gather you are protesting the current conflicts… again...I think you KNOW why they got upset...I think you KNOW they are not PRO-LIES or why some would be pro-war...you’re a bright guy...you know that your counter stamps makes a statement about current events, are accusatory, and makes a blanket statement that no war is just, no support for any war is good, or this current war is unjust...or, in a way, deny the need for a just war... I myself AM anti-war but see that some are just plain inevitable...I am also against lies...and do not bristle as I have very little confidence that our government isn’t lying to us...but there are those who support the government, the current administration and understand what your counter stamp means...and will take you to task on it...I like the feign of innocence as 'why would someone be angry at little ol me? They must LIKE lies. I had no agenda at all'...cute BTW, I support America and think it’s the greatest country on earth and I support our troops…I would fight in a second to keep this union safe and together if I was called to do so. If you are not willing to fight for your country in its hour of need, if you don’t like the union, If you don’t like America, you have choices and the right to either leave or try to change it…but the US needs to stay as it is…50 states and it needs the support of its citizens who care to make it a better place and to right whatever wrongs there might be…America is so great that you can bash it day and night and that’s your right…it doesn’t even insist you be loyal…now that’s pretty great Oh...and putting jefferson on a coin does not deify him...it tells the people of america and the world who we look to as a great american. Nothing wrong with that at all...He is on our coins because of his accomplishments...not because he was born a king...That is how we show our admiration...I have coins and bills with Newton, Einstein, Curie, Copernicus...not because they are gods..because we admire them...
Tom, I too agree that we should stop letting ALL our government officials lie to us and we should call them out on the carpet and deal with them or vote them out of office when the time comes to show our displeasure, but sadly this is not the case. Politicians lie all the time convincingly and unconvincingly and yet in congress the re-election rate of the incumbent is upwards of 95 to 98%. The American people have become complacent and do not act with and within their own government. Those in charge have made rules and red tape that keeps out all but the most determined of the "little people" from participating in government. The people in charge will always make rules aimed at ultimately keeping them in charge, and we have let them do it for so long it has become a bother to most to try and make a change. Instead they sit on their couches and vomit the knowledge that has been given to them by the more informed who are trying to make a difference into what we call rhetoric. As for the other side, NO MORE WAR. I am a airman, a soldier, if you will in the US Air Force and I can't imagine a more noble job than protecting the freedoms of my country. If war must be the case then I fight, if diplomacy is the action then I train in the event diplomacy fails. Do I like war? No. Am I opposed to war? Yes. Why? Because as a member of the military I stand the most to lose in a war on foreign soil. I am the one who will be fighting and dying, soldiers bear the brunt. I am sick and tired of hearing political pundits exclaiming that the American public is tired of war...not many of them have died in it. If they say the soldiers are tired, well then you have something else. And the soldiers are tired, but they understand that you don't leave a job half finished. Sometimes war is the only way, and so it must be, and while I agree with the punch no more war I beleive that is an ideal that we can strive for but almost certainly never attain. As for the private message that you received, it could well be interpreted that with no more lies on one side of the coin and no more wars on the other side, you were effectively making a statement about our current situation and our President. I'll admit that when I first saw it I thought it was a liberal dissention piece aimed at the current administation something I might find on a liberal website. As I now understand it, it is just a way of stating we would like to live in peace with honest lawmakers who serve our own best interests instead of the interests of their parties, who really couldn't give a crap either way about us so long as they keep getting our votes.
Tom I have no problem with your counterstrikes point of fact I rather like them As for what you say on them your not lying either LOL all goverments lie as do politicians it is iin there nature I also totaly agree with no more war, this does not mean that I dont support the British troops in Iraq & afghanistan because I do, what it means is I would prefer them not to have to be there in the first place. De Orc
I also like the coin as I have stated earlier, I think it would make a great collectible piece. If I had some, I would even send one or two to some friends that would not blast me for doing so. I also recognize that there is much emotion on both sides of the argument about the position in Iraq. Many people are going to find these coins very offensive for many different reasons. When you decide to take a position you have to accept the fact that others will defend their position. Free speech is a wonderful double-edged sword. If you are willing to give it you have to be able to take it without too much emotion. I like your site and your work, thanks for the fun contest and a chance to get some of the coins. Best Regards Darryl
To respond to the idea of "Support our Troops" in the original thread, I believe that while challenging as far as fitting it in the space available, the following quote would make it valid as far as context of the man portrayed on the coin. [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]It is our duty still to endeavor to avoid war; but if it shall actually take place, no matter by whom brought on, we must defend ourselves. If our house be on fire, without inquiring whether it was fired from within or without, we must try to extinguish it. In that, I have no doubt, we shall act as one man.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
Good explanation ! Depending on a total and complete explanation you can see how things get turned around. It take skill and truth to make object that has various meanings to many people to be taken at stated value. Bill Clinton was, and is, one of the best politicians in the history of our country. He took it a bit far when he took a rule from an old play book that said it is the truth you speak, until it is proven otherwise. If he had not lost his way with Arafat with a determination of wanting to leave an enduring legacy he would have never let him in our country. We all have the abilty to be swayed . We have to learn to look at the logic that exists in word parsing and other ways of walking around what is real . Good job Tom.
Lies and War and WHY we are at war... Thanks to all who have chimed in and had a discussion on this topic. When I chose the concise slogan NO MORE LIES there were many others I could have picked. Partly I was choosing for brevity. It's hard to say much with just three words and ten characters.... but as Drusus notes... there are nuances that go beyyond the words. I think it's very interesting that our current situation is such that everyone knows instantly what lies are being referred to! Yet there are still those who support the liars. That too is interesting and this slogan was chosen partly for its ambiguity. My dream is to take this slogan and make it a nationwide call to arms. NO MORE LIES! That means no more lies about whether somebody did or did not inhale, no more lies about whether there were or were not weapons of mass destruction, no more lies about who ordered the torture of captured fighters, no more lies about sexual escapades in the white house... NO... MORE... LIES... period! We've heard them all and we're sick of them. We're not babies, we deserve the truth about whatever is going on and we should get it... straight up. As bqcoins said: Yes of course I agree that there are times when war is necessary. But when war simply MUST be, then we should know why. Now it may be that this war in Iraq really was necessary, but if so we have not been told the truth why. The reasons given are totally insufficient. There are those who say the war was necessary because without it we will lose access to Middle East oil and our fiat currency will fall, precipitating the demise of American power. Well... that may be true, but if it is WE DESERVE TO KNOW and to participate in the debate over whether it is in accord with our American values to invade and conquer a foreign country simply to take their natural resources for stark geopolitical reasons. If it's true that America would truly fall without foreign oil imports I would like to see the detailed analysis that shows this to be the case. If I agreed with the analysis I might even agree with the necessity for war even if it does violate our principles and if the war plan involved an ending strategy that leads to a larger goal of sustainability. But I will never agree with the necessity of any war when it is justified by a web of secrecy, deceipt, and just plain lies.... when the plan leads not to sustainability but to even a more headlong rush to resource depletion... when the few powerful corporations are so obviously and blatantly walking away with billions while the country that is "liberated" is stripped of its resources and left far poorer than it began. NO MORE LIES! It's a simple concept.... a derivation of the more powerful and more famous "DO UNTO OTHERS..." It's a reiteration of THE BUCK STOPS HERE or FROM THIS MOMENT ONWARD. It's a declaration of personal conduct as well as a demand for righteousness from those we hire to serve our common needs. I will support any presidential candidtate from whatever party who is willing to adopt this slogan (and MEAN it)!
Got mine in time, maybe you ought to fire up the press and make a few thousand more. If you need supplies, many of us have lots of rolls of 05 buffalos languishing and not worth the price we paid to the mint.
Well they have arrived and Tom I have to say that I for one am more than happy with them will scan them as soon as I have them safe n sound in airtights Thanks for the fast & super safe delivery Tom :hug: De Orc
Here are the 1st 2, havnt got the right type of airtights so these had to do for now lOL De Orc :kewl:
And finaly and worst of all I only have 1 airtight that is any where near ok for this nickle and there are 3 more unscanned LOL also as I like the design on this so much I intend to collect the series now LOL Tom this is your fault :hammer: De Orc
