Prohibition of Nazi German items on Internet Auctions.

Well, as CHRISILD implied from first hand experience, this subject is a bit more sensitive in Germany, for example.

And, the gangs on the streets get their marching orders from these grandfathers (that is how it was in the 30's in Germany, and this is how it is now in the Middle East). I am not generally in favor of banning this or that, but people at least need to take these hate mongers seriously. The risk is that by the time the true threat is seen by the average person, it is too late to do anything about it.

 

"...it was the French that caused the crackdown on ebay and Yahoo. Germany bans new stuff, but historical stuff is OK."
Thanks JBK for adding that point.

Aidan, the jewish people were one of the groups that were victims of the holocaust. Don't you think they have a right as much as any other group to voice their concerns with this issue?

I find it distressful that anyone would want to support a hate monger. It is up to society to keep the hate mongers under control, legally, inorder to perserve the society. It is also a crime in this nation to incite violence. By the way Charlie Manson did not kill anyone himself either, he just expressed his "freedom of speech" to his troubled followers.

Now there will always be people out there who hate. Mainly for it makes them feel superior and/or excuses their lack of success in life and there is little we can do about that. However, it is the impressionable youth, the damaged teen who I worry about for they may be drawn to these symbols of hate without having a mature persective on the evil of it and what it stands for. Remember the troubled teens in Colorado and the shootings that they did on Hitler's birthday. Well the Columbine killers did satanic rituals and had their own nazi collections at home. Would they still have been troubled without these evils, yes. But would they have been killers if these negative influences were not in their life? I think not. Which is one of many reasons why this non-jew is against nazi, KKK, and satanic symbols.

As for the USSR, wasn't Stalin an ally of Hilter and didn't they plan on dividing Poland before Hilter betrayed him and I use the word betrayed loosely for neither man had any sense of honour.

Now I have stated that I would stay out of this but I think that hatred more then "freedom of speech" may be slithering into this forum. I hope I am wrong in this matter for sometimes it is good to be wrong.

 

On a side note, France [thankfully] failed when they tried to crack down on Nazi stuff on yahoo auctions.

Last I checked most of those “speaking out” weren’t even born 60 years ago. So they themselves were not targeted. Either way, throughout history, various people were targeted in various different time period. You can go back thousands of years and get arguments to ban things. So where does one stop in the banning? Why stop with the Nazis? The Turks murdered 1.5 Armenians during WWI, why not ban anything Turkish! Ban the Turkish flag, Turkish coins, etc! Why not go for anything related to Genghis Khan? Let’s go back further and further till we ban everything because something is bound to offend at least one group of people.

And similarly, where does one stop if you want to abolish thought speech? What is the point of the first amendment? The point is to protect speech that some people may not like. I believe the expression goes "I don't agree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death you're right to say it". If we start banning one thing where does it end? One thing it will do is end democracy. Bottom line is, free speech is all or nothing. You may not agree with a person, but that does not justify a police raid on his/her home.

 

I have to say that in general, this strikes me as an American attitude. That is not in any way an insult, quite the contrary. But, other some other countries have a very different history and have other considerations to think about.

Germany, for example, does not in any way ban or restrict Nazi coins (Every day I pass by a coin shop that has them displayed in the window), but when it comes to “thoughts” that are trying to organize into action they have a very real concern about taking some sort of action. It is a constant battle here as to what action is going to far, but they do try to keep things under control. Since they did not succeed in doing that the first time around, they feel a special obligation to deal with

 

The First Amendment, as you will know, applies to US citizens only. It does not apply to citizens of other countries who are deported by or not let into the US merely based on their opinions, not on what they have done or not done. In other words, even among basically free and democratic countries there are different standards. As for denying the Holocaust, I do find it odd that this is a criminal offense here in Germany. Problem is, if you insult (or lie about) an individual person, that person can sue you. Now if you insult millions of people by claiming that nobody was systematically killed in concentration and extermination camps, what can these people do?

If you read about relatively recent lawsuits regarding WW2 crimes, you may notice how humiliating such proceedings very often are, for those who survived the camps, even if they are "only" witnesses. You can't remember if it was actually the defendant who executed your family, or whether he just stood next to the man who did it? Too bad.

As for Zündel, yes, I know that he is married. After all, his wife now operates his nazi web site ... in the US.

Guess we will have more "blocked sites" in the future, ie. content that can only be accessed from certain IP addresses. Last year, for example, the Bush/Cheney campaign web site used such geographical blocking to keep site visitors from overseas out. Not that I find such measures appropriate, and there may be ways of getting around them But I suppose that eBay and similar sites do or will use such technologies so that customers in country A cannot see offers from country B if they are (supposedly) illegal in A ...

Christian

 

Moderator's warning

This is a coin collecting forum. When this thread started, it was somewhat relevant to that subject, but it has drifted further and further away. Constitutional law is a subject for other forums, not this one. Further postings that are not directly related to coins will result in closing this thread.

The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld time and place restrictions on speech by government entities, and has made it clear that an individual's right to control his/her property is not limited by constitutional bans on government action.

Our host has limited this site to numismatics, so please respect his wishes.

 

Too true,Roy.Some posters were going way off topic.This was intended to be a discussion about why Ebay,TradeMe,& other Internet auction websites forbid the listing of Nazi-related items.I can remember one time my boss put a postcard on
Ebay,but Ebay withdrew it.Can you guess why? Because the inscription made a reference to Eva Braun,as it was a postcard showing her house.

Aidan.

 

Just to throw it out there. I collect Poker Chips also...

One of the common ones is this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=63756&item=6160328872&rd=1

I dont watch those becasue those chips do not interest me, but as far as I know they dont get shut down.

-Bobby

 

Bobby,there is a section on coins & banknotes that bear the Swastika in another area of the forum.

Aidan.

 

I hadn't posted in this thread yet, but I wanted to say that I feel that collectors of world coins are also, quite often, collectors of world history. In that light, you must respect all aspects of social history - both the good and the bad.

People may collect them as a limited time frame in which the world also learned a valuable lesson.

I guess that's about all I have to say.

 

As for the first sentence, I plead guilty myself. Maybe it was the combination of both a question and a suspected reason in your initial message that already had the drift potential built in ;-) Sorry for digressing.

Well, why would eBay etc. do that? The only explanation I could offer would take us back to politics, or rather jurisdiction: It seems to be a difficult, and disputed, question whether auction sites have a merely "relaying" position, or whether they are in any way responsible/liable for what is auctioned. So I assume they just want to be on the safe side. But IANAL and anything else I could write about this issue would take us away from coins again ...

Christian

 

"Maybe it was the combination of both a question and a suspected reason in your initial message that already had the drift potential built in", Christian.

That is one of the reasons why I came across so strong with my view point.

However, the digression in my mind added to the coin aspect of the conversation for it gave more background mind set information on where we were coming from with our view points and I must add I respect Christians and JBK's prespective now that I have a better understanding of how they stand on the issue as a whole. I thought they both made impressive agruments against hatred in their own ways and should be applauded.

If everyone had their mind set, as I now percieve it, then I wouldn't mind the coins as much. I am just concerned that the evil that was is still an evil that be for others and others to come and just as various religions have holy relics that bring individuals spirtual strength and help united the group, I am concerned about relics of evil being used as center pieces of hatred.

 

Yeah. I'm waiting for some used German stamps to arrive in the mail hopefully next week or so. Many contain Hitler and some of the auctions boldly advertised these as Hilter stamps even. In any case I purchased them just because I was buying some unrelated philately from the seller and I thought I might as well save on shipping and since no one else bid on them.

I mean I collect them not because for neo-nazism fetish but rather to keep them as historic relic. I mean, imagine what kind of correspondance was used with these Hitler stamps? A Jewish family sending away letters outlying escape plans to relatives outside of the country? Or a letter reporting to the SS that someone is hiding in the neighbour's attic?

 

E-Bay does not prohibit the sale of coins, banknotes and stamps from Nazi Germany. But it will prohibit the sale of specific nazi memorabilia such as helmets or medals. Yahoo also has this prohibition. Bidville on the other hand does not have this prohibition. Part of this prohibition is due to the fact that the import of nazi items is illegal in certain countries.

 

Nazi Coins

My father picked up his 1st Purple heart in North Africa and his second at the Battle Of the Bulge. He was later on a guard of Herman Goring at the Nuremburg Trials. My family spent 3 years in Weisbaden Germany in the 50's. These things led me to a desire to know history enough to understand why the world settles disputes with bullets instead of words. There is nothing in me that likes the Nazi's, the Imperalism of Japan or the threat of Communist Russia. But the artifacts of those countries, and countless other nations who used military power to expand their empires, are a physical link to their history. And a reminder to all who study them that they were real, not a reality show on TV. People who see them usually want to know more. My generation grew up with fathers and uncles who fought in WW2, but to the new generation, it is something in history books. The Nazi coins in my World Coin collection became a History lesson to my grand children. I think people who would destroy coins or artifacts should remember that before the Nazis burned people they burned books. JonySky

 

Uhh, Capital "A" in Alabama please.

 

Here's an update on that Holocaust denier who was deported from Canada last year.He
is now being put on trial in Germany.

Aidan.

 

going to trial for thought crime!

 

Another one has been deported for thought crimes! And he's married to a US citizen with a child!

Read about the 41 year old "Nazi war criminal"

http://www.nbc5.com/news/5331363/detail.html