Hamas vs Fatah

So, if I can decipher what it is you are trying to convey with this poorly worded disjoined sentence; Us, the other participants in this thread(the antagonists), do not think that the length of time that the two sides in this ceaseless conflict have been at each other throats is important enough(worthy) to merit either our political or military involvement on Israel's behalf. Do I have that right?

Because you are absolutely correct. I don't believe that the length of time the mindless slaughtering and tit-for-tat revenge killings that both sides have participated in over the centuries is in any way a justification for this country to join in on the stupidity by defending either side. And if your judgement weren't so clouded by cultural self-interest and a fanatical desire to defend fellow Jews at ANY cost with ANY rationalization, you'd feel the same way I do.

I grew up in the same country you did and I feel no animosity towards either the Muslims or the Israelis that don't have any animosity towards me or my country. You on the other hand, have tossed your lot in with the Israeli side for only one reason. You are motivated by an allegiance to your ancestorial roots and to a people that share a common set of superstitions with yourself over and above the people you grew up with in your own country. How perverse of a perspective you possess with regard to your own country.

I'd bet if it came down to your decision that either the US or Israel were going to be wiped out over night, you'd choose the US and save Israel because of the insane fanatical religious dogma you adhere to and maniacal belief that Israel is THE holy land. I am an American first and foremost. My allegiance is to this country not the the country my ancestors hail from. You might be a good Jew, but as an American, you leave much to be desired.

 

Moen, your not in the same shoes as Ruben. Your comments are uncalled for. They're a bit harsh and clearly display your attempt to end this discussion as the victor by any means possible which include attacking the individual. I'm disappointed...

Drusus, while the Islamic population in Israel doe's have it a bit tough they are free to relocate. I did some checking and there are NO/NONE/ZILCH Jewish peoples living freely or otherwise in Jordan or Syria, or just about anyplace else in the middle east for that matter. The reasons for this are rather unpleasent...

 

Is Mr. Brooklyn the only person you allow to attack people without being disappointed Bonegigger? Moen and he simply have different opinions and point of view (mr Brooklyns is not in my shoes either) yet Mr. Brooklyn has called people bigots, racists, stupid, etc...etc...He has done this in several threads I have seen him post in, if anyone has an different opinion than him he degenerates to calling them names. I guess its okay for him because you agree with him?

 

Bone, My point is that I am in exactly the same shoes as Rube. We are both Americans and should behave as such. My comments are far tamer than his. If you go back and read, you can plainly see that Drus and I are not the ones belittling those that we do not agree with or calling them names and dismissing their opinions. The worst thing I said in the post you are referring to is that Rube might be a little lacking as an American. If that qualifies as harsh, I just don't see it. Sorry.

I am somewhat surprised by your attitude though. You have fought for this country and continue to express deeply patriotic ideals and yet you side with someone whose primary allegiance isn't to America but to the state of Israel. You don't find your defense of his opinions a bit inconsistant with your own stated values? You might be disappointed with me but I am confused by your stance...

 

Point taken. To be honest some of his mrbrklyn's posts have exceded "rambling" as some of yours too when passionate opinions are expressed. While my Dyslexia is not triggered so much by Moen's posts Ruben's have repeatedly set-it-off. His message is good (IMHO), but like you say his loss of poise has tainted the delivery at times.

Right now, I don't think there is a totally innocent member of the discussion when it comes to this aspect of things... :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

 

I can tell you the worst indiscretion I am guilty of in this thread. I purposely use words like extermination rather than a more accurate term like extinction because I know the power some terminology has in the Jewish frame of referrence. This I am guilty of and I apologize but the message surrounding these inflamtory terms is still just as valid in my opinion.

 

Correct Moen, only my ill-stated opinion.

 

Even taken out of context as you did, this statement does not say that Israel should not exist. It says "If Israel did not exist". Big difference my friend :headbang:

You leave me wondering what the "very, very small number" of Muslims that are "good" actually is and how you came to that number or were you just venting your personal opinion with no real facts to back it up. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess the latter. :yawn:

 

I have never said it shouldn't exist, I have repeatedly said it DOES exist thus both sides must proceed on this fact and learn to live in peace...very dishonest of you. You quote something I said in response to an assertion that the world is a safer place because Israel exists...I made the point that maybe, since Israel is such a bone of contention, it might even be a safer place if not for our one sided support of Israel and condemnation and hatred of all things Muslim... I then said that it probably wouldnt be the case because zealots will always find something to fight about.

I have said over and over and over again in this thread that people need to deal with the here and now, Israel exists now and it isnt going anywhere nor should it...see how people selectively read what they want to and skew things on an agenda to continue to bicker and vilify? I have said over and over again I do not hate either side and want both to live in peace... Muslims are not evil and to say that most are is showing the bias I dont have as I know many who are not evil at all and I think most are just people trying to live their lives like anyone else...and I AM THE ONE CALLED A BIGOT!!. You, of course, who characterize muslims as 'evil' (something I have never done to either side) in the most direct terms is not a bigot...funny how that is...

and just to illustrate who indeed constantly attacks others and uses dishonest rhetoric, Childish personal attacks, and biased tactics like you have, I can dig up many quotes as well:

Saying 'duh' to me as he corrects and assertion I never made (because he doesnt read) and even misspells the guys name....

^^With terrible spelling calling my wife a racist.

You're not your but calling a person a bigot for his opinions...

This guy doesn't know the difference between you're and your and he calls people stupid when almost every insulting sentence he types would give him an F in English class Ironic

Calling someone's point of view stupid and hateful...he constantly devolves to DUH! or STUPID if you dont agree with him...

Pompous, I know it all and am always right and if you dont agree you are stupid.

He loves to label people stupid who do not agree with him...and I think the last time I had a debate where someone went Duuuuh was when I was discussing something with my 4 year old nephew.

Doesn't know the difference between Your and You're and every other word is misspelled and I'M stupid...doesnt care how I feel about it but floods the thread with other peoples thoughts and words 10 posts in a row...but doesn't CARE. Are you seeing how childish and erratic this guy is?

This is a trend in his posting that the more you dont simply agree with him, the more insulting he gets until he simply sounds like a kid on the playground. He makes black and white definitive statements based on opinion and holds many opinions (not just about this topic) that are extreme and biased to say the least...he makes statements that are hyperbole at best. The Gimp / Photoshop thread showed me that this guy is capable of making sweeping generalizations not based on first hand knowledge or any form of reality but simple bias and if you do not agree you are 'stupid'. I asked him 10 times in the PS / gimp thread if he had even used PS CS2 and he simply never answered because he was arguing about something without even having first hand knowledge about what he was talking about.

So please...if someone strikes back at him...just know that this kid strikes out at people constantly for not bowing to his obviously superior knowledge and answers counterpoints with 'DUH!' while typing the most disjointed, misspelled posts of any genius I have ever corresponded with. Assuming he even bothers to read a post which he has stated he doesnt because they are wrong and do not merit his time in reading them, but he wont balk at copy / pasting anything and everything he can find on the web that might back his opinion for 10 posts in a row or zeroing in one or two sentences and charging you with racism and simply ignoring everything else. Its impossible to have an intelligent mature discussion with him, its a waste of time.

 

Anybody remember what the topic was when I started this thread? It was Hamas vs Fatah. Rube has degenerated this into a Israeli vs Arab diatribe for some reason. I guess we need to take it back.

If Rube wants to have a discussion about Israel and the Arabs, he really should start his own thread on the topic. I'm sure it will be just as tumultuous.

 

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum has condemned the execution of former president of Iraq Saddam Hussain, saying that it was a "political assassination", Israel Radio reported Saturday morning.

Barhoum called Hussein a "prisoner of war" and said that his hanging was "in violation of international law."

The Islamic Hamas movement heads the Palestinian government since it took office in March following an election victory.

Barhoum also condemned the timing of the execution, which falls on the morning of the Muslim Eid al-Adha celebrations.

The Hamas spokesman in the West Bank city of Tul Karem also condemned the execution during his sermon in a mosque for the Muslim holiday and specifically blamed and condemned the United States.

In Jenin, the Fatah movement also called for a mourning period and condemned the execution, according to the Palestine News Network. It also said that the Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails had announced several days of mourning.

The Palestinian organizations and Iraq under the Baath Party regime of Saddam Hussein had varying relations over the years, with the PLO supporting Hussein in 1990 when he invaded Kuwait, a move that cost the PLO much international popularity and support.

© 2006 DPA

 

http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/wtj01000.htm

 

I don't hate the Jews, Personally, I think they are the chosen people of God. Happy New Year Ruben, may the country of Israel continue to exist thru this year and also thru the millenniums yet to come. I wish all the lost peoples of the world will embrace a religion or belief which doesn't condone the destruction of somebody who freely chooses to worship in a different way than they do...

Happy New Year All
Ben

 

I dont hate anyone, I might disspise certain sections of humanity but hate no, and the Jewish population is not even on my list :smile
But I say this quite openly I fully support the right of Israil to exist without threat from the fanatics on it's borders 100% and the same goes for the rights of any one who follows the Jewish faith to do so without fear (Same goes for other faiths)

Happy New Year to AL L:hug: Specialy to you and your Ruben

De Orc :hug:

 

what are the rest of us? Gods unchosen? I personally feel talk like that is dangerous and divisive. God created us all and as such we are all his chosen. I am sure many Muslims feel they are gods chosen as well...no wonder with concepts like this still around that there are so many fanatics that kill in the name of god...hey, they are gods chosen, thus they cant be wrong...kinda scary. No wonder Mr. Brooklyn is such a pompous know it all that is never wrong, he is gods chosen and I am just God mistake, what WAS I thinking to question gods chosen

 

Like I posted before, Radical Islam is the enemy in my and many millions of others eyes and sadly there appears to be no moderate Imam or other Islamic Leader saying otherwise. As far as being "God's Chosen" you'll have to find that answer within yourself... I only go by what is written in the Bible, but have also read the Koran. One must understand that the Cult of Islam is spreading worldwide like the plague and everywhere it spreads there is violence. Remember the weed sprouted long, long after Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity were being practiced.
http://www.therefinersfire.org/chosen_people.htm

I blame Radical Islam for the injuries I'll carry to the grave. I received these in a country which requested the presence of US troops to protect their lazy @$$s yet cultivated the radicals which they're suspposdd to be fighting against. Yes, Saudi Arabia. I've seen the rabid fervent behavior up-close. There is a real danger...
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

 

there is moderate islam, you just refuse to see it...they have spoken out against radical islam quite often... Maybe it is just the ones who scream the loudest are the only ones you hear...that often seems to be the case that the ones who yell the loudest get the attention yet often have the least to say. I could quote them but I have a feeling it would do no good. That is your choice to vilify them.. I am sorry you choose to do this, but what do I know, I am not gods chosen, dont know...maybe I am gods mistake...I guess if YOU aren't a Jew that puts you in the same boat...not chosen. I see now why Mr. Brooklyn thinks he is so right and why others here give his intolerance and childish pompous rantings not just a pass but agreement and scold anyone who calls him on such behaviour...(again...he screams the loudest ) sad...hope one day you learn to take people as they come and not lump them all with the bad ones...thats what I learned to do with christians as well as muslims and jews...good luck with your crusade. On that I will leave this conversation to the extremist religious fanatics

 

I'm quite happy not being one of Gods Chosen, very happy being an underling. There is so very much about religion which is not understood. Books with words of peace, lost or destroyed which might have changed the way people think now are no longer available. Books with answers, destroyed by zealots who in turn destroy the lives of those who don't believe as they do.

History says, the land (Palestine, the Roman name) was given to the Arabs by these Romans. The Jews who had lived there for thousands of years prior to this were simply out of luck. In the following centauries 'The Crusades' were early legitimate attempts to regain the Judeau-Christian homeland and were successful in some respects, but like always the fluid geopolitical situations eroded the gains made.

I do know this, the Winged Hussars stopped the destructive advance of the Islamic forces at Vienna on Sept, 11 1683!!! Does that date ring a bell? Peaceful Islam, started the war this time Sept 11, 2001 yet again... I would never raise a hand in anger to a Muslim or antagonize him if he were my neighbor, but understand this. If an Islamic hand is raised against me or mine, I will fight like a lion to my last drop of blood...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...inkCode=xm2&camp=1789&creativeASIN=B000H0UPKI

 

I have a friend who is Coptic Egyptian and he was very much against the war in Iraq. Hs reason for his position was that he was against Islamofacism and was willing to put up with any other form of governence. from his prespective, wheather it is Egypt, Iran, or Iraq, the greatest threat to Freedom world over is Islamic fundementalism and Islmaic politics. In his opinion, we should have attacked Iran.

Being that he fled Egypt from Islamic fundementalism, it is more than an interesting prespective.

Ruben

 

Well Bone, this is a side of you that I've never seen. Frankly, I am a bit surprised by it. I'll be honest with with you about something I'm sure you don't want to hear or more accurately, can't hear. I don't intend any disrespect of your beliefs but only wish to convey the way I see the situation. You will continue to believe what you believe no matter what is said here. I have no doubt of this.

The bible is just a book. A little bit history, a little bit common sense, a little bit wisdom, a huge chunk of religious agenda that has very little relevance to the world we live in today. It was written for superstitious sheep and is no more an instrument of peace than your average aircraft carrier. The same goes for the Koran and the Torah. The main function of any of these books is to consolidate the power of those that profess to bring enlightenment to their followers(the sheep). The reasons that the messages in these texts are so ambiguous, conflicting and subject to such a wide variety of interpretations is twofold; First, the original words have been translated and retranslated for centuries. With each new translation, a modern spin would be inserted into the words to increase it's relevance to the current crop of sheep and new cultural biases and also to redirect any inconsistancies that were the result of earlier translations. A losing battle when you consider how many cultures and how many translations have had to have occurred over the many centuries.

Secondly, the people that these books were originally written by had their own cultural biases and beliefs that we would dismiss as silly today. Their messages may have been quite apt for their time but nothing even remotely similar to those early cultures exists anywhere on earth today. Simple concepts like thou shalt not kill, and thou shalt not steal were good messages of the day and had/have obvious societal benefits to the populations of any civil society but these simple societal norms are hardly words to base ones entire lifetime on. Religion did not create civil society but they often take credit for it anyway.

And that brings me to the real point, you can't live your entire life devoted to book full of simple concepts that are well known societal norms in todays world written by self-serving, agenda based interest groups for the purpose of maintaining their own power and influence over modern societies. Those doing the interpreting of these words are always the ones that wield the power because they are the supposed links to the almighty. A book is not the answer of how one should live their life. Living your life is the answer to living your life. Yet another simple concept that doesn't keep anyone else in charge of your life but you.

I believe the less books written by God or inspired by God we have the better off we'll all be. That's a message that those doing "Gods work" don't want you to consider. I have no doubt that they will get their way.