Prohibition of Nazi German items on Internet Auctions.

Maybe one of your prized U.S. coins was in Charles Manson's pocket when he was planning his murder spree.

Maybe one of my Nazi silver 2 mark coins was owned by a member of the Resistance. Or maybe it was used by Georg Elser to pay for the bomb making materials that he used to try to assassinate Hitler right before WWII broke out.

Too many scenarios to get excited about it either way.

 

Well as I have always stated before, when one is debating it is not to change the minds of those you are debating with for that will never occur. One debates a topic in hope of educating or influencing those who have not yet made a mindset to the topic that is being debated.

If anyone out there is interested in collecting nazi coins think about what the nazi party, the nazi miltary machine, the nazi death squads, and the nazi death camps stood for. It was hell on earth.

 

I agree, as was the Soviet Union, Cuba, Zimbabwe, North Korea, etc. etc. etc.

I must admit, though, that I also have some coins from almost all those places as well.

 

<I feel all nazi artifacts should be destoryed and the memory of their evil could be displayed by the victims horror.(eg allied film documentaries and survior's taped statements)>
And then since all the primary material is gone, and the only "evidence" of Nazi attrocities are those "created" by the victors, it become much easier for the nazi sympathizers to argue that the attrocities are all nothing but a fabrication. Think about it. You are arguing to get rid of all of the "primary sources" and only rely on secondaries and third hand accounts.

 

The question is as a world do we want the horrors of Hitler and the nazi's to be remembered for the sake of the victims and hopefully someday to be a moral compass to prevent any future genocides or do you want to keep the nazi's memory as one of a legacy. Coins are a small point to the whole agrument, an agrument that I seem to be kept on being sucked into, but remember the reasons coins are minted in the first place. They are minted not only for commerce but also to legitimatize a ruler or government and to bring awe. Isn't that why we have debates on who should or shouldn't be on a coin within this very forum. The nazi coins do not bring a moment of silence for the victims nor do they make a case of what evil the nazi's did. All they do is what they were meant to do and that is have people look at them with awe. Which is why most people collect them in the first place. I wonder how many collectors of nazi artifacts ever visit one of the holocaust museums and I mean with a tear in their eye and not a smile on their face.

I also wonder about the statements of victors. I thought the west german people had alot to gain with the allied victory as well. Hitler never did had a majority vote you know before his goons took over. World War II and the cold war has for the longest time been viewed as a conflict between good and evil and yes when fighting for one's life one sometimes does have to be brutal so please no how we dropped the bomb replies for we never fired the first shot just the last one and thank god we did or there would be no jews, Christians, etc today or didn't you ever studied what Hitler and the nazi's had planned for everyone else. I grew up with Jesus in my house not Hitler.

 

My few incidental items probably don't qualify me as a "collector of nazi artifacts", but I am a dues paying member of both the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., and the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles; and can't visit either one without more than one tear as I remember the fate of my father's uncles, aunts and cousins. Several years ago I found myself emotionally unable to enter the Dachau memorial while traveling in Germany.

Do you consider the Holocaust Museum a "collector of nazi artifacts"? They have many, including ghetto coins.

Conder101's point is very well taken. The "best evidence" rule of American jurisprudence, generally requiring the use of original documents and things instead of copies in order to prove a fact, is based on the concept that he sets forth. There are grandparents alive today to whom the Nazi horrors are "history", not remembered events. For their grandchildren (and mine) to know the truth it is essential to preserve the original evidence someplace besides the memories of my rapidly disappearing generation.

 

Roy I am sorry about your families loss just as I am "sorry for my family's loss and my wifes family's loss.I will state that I have never been to either of the two museums that you speak of but in the 1980's I did have a tour of Vad Vashem, the Holocaust Museum in Israel and I can not tell you if they had or hadn't had any nazi coins but the evidence they had and the evidence that I saw of the nazi horror was overwhelming.

I feel that artifacts of evil can very well become icons to the next generation to justified hate. I just looked at a nazi stamp/poster/coin/note website and this is one example of what was advertised and how it was sold
"1 Lot: 25 Nazi Coins copper and zinc coins
(asst. dates & mint marks)
All have the eagle & swastika . "WAR-TIME" circulated ware. These were
from Germany & All over Europe & travelled with the German soldiers."

Now do you really think that most of the people who are buying these coins really are thinking about how bad the nazi party and nazi death squads which traveled with the army really was or are a large percentage of them are swastika hunting if you know what I mean.

"3001...SOLD OUT"

As I have stated before, "the reasons coins are minted in the first place. They are minted not only for commerce but also to legitimatize a ruler or government and to bring awe. Isn't that why we have debates on who should or shouldn't be on an american coin in this very forum".

The nazi coin does not offer any evidence of the horror that was done all it does is glorifly the horror of the movement.


Note: Did you know that the troubled Combine student shooters were neo-nazi's followers who had their own "collection" and the shooting was done on Hitler's birthday. The list goes on and on how that old poison fuels hatred today.

 

As a matter of fact, yes I do. I simply do not believe that even a large minority of Nazi memorabilia collecords are Nazi sympathizers. Of the ones that are, they are usually morons who woul dnot know or appreciate the value of an original antique. They buy newly made Nazi flags.

Condor's point also must be carefully considered: there are already popel who cliam the Holocaust did not happen, and that is with all the physical evidence. If you reduced the evidence to some videotapes then the deniers would have a field day.

Ithas always been tradition for the vistors to bring home war trophies. Lugers, German helmets, flags, coins - it all was part of the privilege of winning. I see these things as a testament to what was defeated, not glorifying "what might have been".

 

Taking home war trophies was more of a closure type of thing and coming to terms with the horror of the events that occur in battle or patrol. I know of few vets who actually hang any "items" in public view, it is usually something that is personal and viewed in private for healing in a way.

I never said destory what a curator has set up as a presentation in a public museum for educational purposes and as I stated before there is a ton of first line evidence that is in the museums of the holocaust. Does someone want to buy a lampshade made out of skin for their home or does someone want to buy a bar of soap made out of the fat of a child, or does someone want to buy nazi gold pulled out of the mouth of a women on her way to be gassed. After all lets all have our "private" museums to that hell if one is to follow your point of view.

I am leaving this thread for I have said all that I could say on this matter. Keep your pieces of silver, at least Judas threw his away when he saw the horror of it all.

 

For the sake of the topic, I suppose..... Why not look at any u.s. or colonal coins as "bad" after all, we did drive the Native Americans from THEIR lands right? At the beggining, we did have slaves right? Should those who collect u.s. coins not collect coins from that time period? After all, that coinage that some may have in their 2x2 flips, may in fact have been payment for a slave Let's take a look at the present.... Who has more deaths by way of gun, America, or Germany?
No, i'm not Anti-American, I am one, and proud of who I am, let's face facts though, in the long run, which country has killed more of their "own" ? We have had a Civil war, we went to war with England ( a part of us is in fact related to England * just my opinion * ) 2 world wars , we are at war with terrorism .... Current rate of murder by gun in the u.s. is what.... over 11 thousand? Heck, it may be more, we aren't including stabbings, std's ( another form of genocide * my opinion * ) Drunk driving accidents that resault in death, OD's . Truth is Germany may have one of the bloodiest histories, so, now to the present time, why do we kill each other at a higher rate ?
Abolishing nazi coins from auction sites isn't logical, the Germans killed those who held a differant belief system, England were killing colonists because of their beliefs, and wanting to break away, The civil war was brought on by differant beliefs, the war on terrorism is ( my personal opinion ) evolved into war on beliefs, U.S. citizens have abortions everyday, kids are murdered by their parents, and other sickos.
Nazi coins are a piece of history, as ar U.S. coins, as are Japanese coins. I think the biggest thing here, is the coins that have a nazi symbol on them, if they didn't have that, would you consider them "alright" . As a collector of U.S., German and Austria coins, have a good nite all. Hope this wasn't too long.

 

I' be inclined to respect your opinion but then you say things like this.

Collecting Nazi coins is nothing like having those lamps, soap, or tooth gold.

Also, to compare collectors of these coins to Judas is quite offensive (apparently you hold Judas in higher esteem because he threw his away).

Also, where do you think museums get their historical articfacts? They exist only because someone has saved them.


I love my swastika silver coins - they are a reminder of history, as well as being history themselves. Each one can inspire someone to learn something they might otherwise not have exposure to.

I can only imagine what you would think about the bricks I pulled out of the rubble that used to be Hitker's mountain retreat in Berchdesgaden.

 

Banning of symbols is just nonsense. It restricts freedom of speech and expression, which is the highest form of God given rights.

For instance, the USSR slaughtered up to 30 million Eastern Europeans and Germans in concentration camps. Does that mean anything bearing the hammer and sickle should be banned?? Anything with USSR should be banned? Why do people talk of banning Nazi stuff and not USSR stuff? If you do one the other should be a no brainer too. But as I stated banning something like this is silly.

Though ebay does have insane rules, you do find lots of Nazi stamps and coins on there.

 

Class316,Nazi German stamps & coins are allowed to
be listed on Ebay,but medals & uniforms are definitely not allowed to be listed.The same applies to www.trademe.co.nz .This is due to the pressure from the Jewish rights groups in both France & Germany.It is actually a crime to deny the Holocaust in Germany,as a German white supremacist living in Canada found out to his cost recently.He was deported back to Germany & arrested immediately upon arrival back in Germany.

 

I know about the anti Free speech laws in Germany. It's also the case in France and Canada. And I did read about Zundel. Bottom line is persecuting for thought crime no matter what is sickening.

And what I said above also applies to medals and uniforms. They shouldn't be banned. But if these are banned so should USSR uniforms and medals. But this is not the case.

 

I see where you are coming from.The Commies were
(& are) as evil as the Nazis.To say that Communism is not a racist ideology is very wrong.The Commies are extremely racist,considering that we have got an avowedly Communist regime telling lies to the people of New Zealand.Helen Clark has stated that she is in favour of New Zealand becoming a republic
(a.k.a. Outpost of Tyranny) like Zimbabwe & Ireland.Would I ever support a republic? No Way!

 

Mr Zündel did not "find out" about that recently. He has been familiar with German law, at least as nazi propaganda is concerned, for a long time. He moved to Canada in the late 1950s. When his Holocaust denial website was closed due to a Canadian court decision, he moved to the US in 2001 but had to leave the country when his visa expired. Back in Canada, he was arrested in 2003 according to some recent anti-terrorism law, and (he is neither a Canadian nor a US citizen) finally deported to Germany.

And yes, denying the Holocaust is against the law here. May be due to the fact that my country's history is a tiny bit different from that of NZ or the US. (Guess why most Holocaust denial and nazi websites are hosted in the US even if their content is entirely in German?) Actually I do not think that such laws, or the ban of the swastika imposed by the US and the other allies 60 years ago, make much sense. If people know that they cannot say something because saying it is against the law, they may still believe it. Problem is, changing such laws is virtually impossible in a situation where almost 10 percent of the voters in Saxony (a German state) voted for a neo-nazi party this year ...

As for what is "forbidden" on eBay, well, that is eBay's decision. If you want to sell or buy nazi medals or uniforms in Germany, for example, that is perfectly legal, provided the stuff is actually from that time. You will run into problems if you sell newly made nazi uniforms because that could be considered nazi propaganda.

Christian (not living in a country where rights are "God given", and without kings or queens ...)

 

That is for sure. In Germany this is all a hot issue that hits home far more than in any other country.

As for the memorabilia, I think France is the worst, and it was the French that caused the crackdown on ebay and Yahoo. Germany bans new stuff, but historical stuff is OK.

 

He did not "leave" the US. His Visa expired so they used that excuse to arrest and deport him to Canada. He was married to a US citizen.

In Canada, he was detained for about 2 years in solitary confinement before being deported to Germany.

Despite the fact that millions of illegals are allowed to roam about in the US (and in Canada), they target an old man for his thoughts. Wow I feel a lot safer now

 

I sympathize with what you are saying and I almost agree totally, but these Holocaust deniers are hard core trouble-makers, and a good part of their audience is the kind who wants to do serious damage to the US and its allies.

 

They're trouble makers cause they speak? I'd say trouble makers are gangs on the streets not men old enough to be my grand father.