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It appears you think a democracy should operate on the principles of a private club. No wonder, then, that you feel the test of whether someone should be allowed to vote is that you "trust them" and that they "speak for you". I find that utterly extraordinary.

 

*Sigh* I have many words to write for NaNoWriMo today and work to do besides. I'm not going to expend any more energy on who is intent on misrepresent my argument without supporting any argument of his own. Please tell me, again, how it is that asking for identification restricts anyone's voting rights? Support your argument. Don't just argue that my position is wrong: demonstrate how it is wrong. If you can't, then you are just infantilizing the people who have no ID, saying that they have so little control over their lives that they cannot access the easily-acquired identification because "the system" is holding them back.

 

Sort of yes, it should operate like a private club. You have to be a live resident in that district to vote - let alone this country. Sorry, but if you are not live or a resident of that district, you cannot vote. Now you have yet to demonstrate just how getting an ID is such an imposition.

 

I certainly have no wish to hold you back from NaNoWriMo - and since you feel so strongly about personal responsibility, perhaps you should take charge of your own priorities rather than lashing out at me. I've already addressed your question umpteen times - requiring identification restricts voting rights because MANY PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE IDENTIFICATION, and therefore will be prevented from voting. This is very simple stuff. And I am not arguing that your position is "wrong" as such, simply that your values are deeply misguided. You believe that certain people should be prevented from voting because you do not "trust them" and they "do not speak for you". I believe that is a profoundly elitist and anti-democratic mindset.

And last but not least, I am not arguing that "the system" is holding people back by preventing them from getting ID. I am arguing that the system is denying people their democratic rights if it prevents them from voting.

 

If twisting my words makes you feel better, have at it, but neither you nor anyone here believes that is what I meant. In order for an election to be valid steps should be taken to prevent abuse and asking voters to simply present ID is an easy & common sense measure.

 

"neither you nor anyone here believes that is what I meant"

You have an uncanny knack of incorrectly guessing what I believe, David. If you didn't mean that only those people who think it's "important" enough to get their ID in advance should be allowed to vote, it's extremely hard to understand why you used that language in the first place. If you didn't mean that, would you therefore confirm that people's lack of engagement should not be any kind of barrier to voting?

 

Saying it "requiring identification restricts" does in no way say how or why it does so. Saying "MANY PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE IDENTIFICATION" does not in any way explain how it restricts anyone from voting. All sorts of identification are readily available and there for the getting

 

James,

I don't know how much you know about our political system but you are absolutely correct in your assessment of the problem. The is absolutely no voter fraud issue in this country other than Republican election officials suddenly finding several thousand votes on their personal laptops days after the election is over and other magically appearing and disappearing votes from rigged voting machines provided by companies Like Diebold that are big Republican contributors. As far as the individual voter goes, in just about any state in the country, out of millions of votes cast during an election, it has never been found that more than like 4 or 5 voters actually cast an invalid vote and mainly by mistake. The issue isn’t now nor has it ever been about individuals casting large numbers of illegal votes. Nor is it about needing specific kinds of ID to register (in Texas for example, a student ID isn’t valid even though it is issued by and educational institution but a National Rifle Association ID is perfectly acceptable for some reason) Hum?
The real issue, and everyone knows this whether they’ll admit to it or not, is the Right-wings desire to disenfranchising low-income and poor populations, students, and working class elderly voters that disproportionally vote Democrat. In other words, the more restrictive voting registration rules have nothing to do with the 4 or 5 cases of intentional or unintentional miscast votes that show up on Election Day and way more to do with the hundreds of thousands of mostly Democrat supporting voters that are now unable to vote. The Republicans gave up on winning elections fairly along time ago when they realized less and less people are entering their ranks so they have to steal votes in key areas that will enable them to win elections anyway. If you’ll notice, Dems are all about getting people to vote while Repubs are all about restricting the right to vote and they use the straw man argument of voter fraud to justify disenfranchise as many poor people, young people, old people as possible.

 

That is jut plain hilarious.
Care to try these;
http://www.wisn.com/r/4472834/detail.html
http://missouri.watchdog.org/5822/fifteen-missouri-counties-have-more-voters-than-census-population/
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2008/08/ohio-voting-machines-contained.html
http://rightwingliberal.wordpress.c...sin-over-4500-more-votes-than-voters-in-2004/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124182750646102435.html
http://factcheck.org/2008/10/acorn-accusations/
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/06/acorn-pleads-guilty-voter-registration-fraud-nevada/
http://www.stoptheaclu.com/2009/07/29/doj-civil-rights-black-panther-voter-fraud-absolved/
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Re...ke-Theres-Fire-100000-Stolen-Votes-in-Chicago
http://dailycaller.com/2010/10/22/c...ud-could-pose-threat-in-illinois-senate-race/
http://www.redstate.com/chicagobluesgirl/2011/10/21/fighting-voter-fraud-in-illinois-and-in-america/
http://www.masson.us/blog/?p=4044

That is jut a hint of what is out there. You want more?

 

I never disputed that the Right-wingers pushed the myth of voter fraud. Heck, that is part of the plan. I also cite the cases of where Republicans specifically were invloved in voter fraud. They commit fraud and then rail against it. Hum?

 

Myth? Convictions and 120% of registered voters voting is not what I would exactly call a myth. However, since it obviously disagrees with your concept of the world, it does not count. Just like you and your polls;

 

This thread took kind of a strange turn. But, I'll join in. Doesn't it seem reasonable that the Democrats would want voter identification cards just so those nasty Republicans couldn't commit voter fraud? Actually, it's vice-versa, but you get the point.

 

You are willfully missing the point. There is real-world proof that, regardless of how "simple" you think it is, many people do not get the type of ID required. Therefore, you know that this requirement will prevent people who would otherwise have voted from voting. The responses from David, Hollysmom, etc. have tacitly conceded that people will indeed be debarred - but apparently that's perfectly OK because they're not the sort of people who these self-appointed arbiters would want to vote.

 

So is it your position people don't obtain the required ID based on principle or poverty?
Keep in mind, the people were required to provide ID when they initially registered to vote. Was that a barrier or an over-the-top measure to disenfranchise potential voters?
In reality, this whole ID thing is much ado about nothing. For the most part, folks have the necessary ID or are willing to get it if voting is important to them (it is simple, cheap & accessible to all). The requirement has never been a secret, by the way. The left has taken this very minor issue & tried to make it into a big deal. Perhaps the disinformation you are receiving over there is slanted or incorrect?

 

"So is it your position people don't obtain the required ID based on principle or poverty?"

The fact that you would even bother to ask that question demonstrates that you are still missing the point. It doesn't matter why they don't have it. It matters that they don't, and you therefore know the effect of making that ID a requirement to vote will have.

"or are willing to get it if voting is important to them"

I thought your claim was that you didn't really "mean" that the last time you said it?

"Perhaps the disinformation you are receiving over there is slanted or incorrect?"

I've yet encounter any disinformation that wasn't.

 

"There is real-world proof that" - Himmm, where?
"many people do not get the type of ID required." - and those are the ones you really want to vote on the future of our country?

 

"and those are the ones you really want to vote on the future of our country?"

Call me weird, but I actually want every adult citizen to be able to vote on the future of our country. The fact that you and a number of others on this thread seemingly don't is deeply, deeply troubling.

 

You keep talking about the effect requiring ID has but you don't seem able to connect the dots as to how requiring ID prevents people from voting. If you have a point to make just say it, stop speaking in veiled intimations.
Requiring one to abide by the law doesn't hinder their ability to vote.

 

"you don't seem able to connect the dots as to how requiring ID prevents people from voting. If you have a point to make just say it, stop speaking in veiled intimations."

For the love of God, man, I don't see what's "veiled" about making the blindingly obvious point that requiring ID to vote will prevent people who don't have the required ID from voting. Now will that be the seventh time I've answered your question, or the eighth?

 

I warned you James! Logic and facts meet wall.