The thing about Hitler and his movement was that it was initially a populist movement. It was not the intellectuals and the elite of German society that he aimed his message at but those that were bringing up the rear of society, the people that had nothing. Germany had been strangling under the war reparations they were paying from the First World War and there was a lot of poverty. These were the people that he used to build his power, the workers. As we know, the Nazi Party morphed into a Fascist dictatorship mostly modeled on the Mousseline Italian Government. I don’t think you can pin Hitler and the Nazis down to one form of government that fits exclusively into one type of political movement. Hitler became whatever was convenient to be to achieve power.
Hitler was named "Man of the Year" in 1938 by Time Magazine. They noted Hitler's anti-capitalistic economic policies: "Most cruel joke of all, however, has been played by Hitler & Co. on those German capitalists and small businessmen who once backed National Socialism as a means of saving Germany's bourgeois economic structure from radicalism. The Nazi credo that the individual belongs to the state also applies to business. Some businesses have been confiscated outright, on other what amounts to a capital tax has been levied. Profits have been strictly controlled. Some idea of the increasing Governmental control and interference in business could be deduced from the fact that 80% of all building and 50% of all industrial orders in Germany originated last year with the Government. Hard-pressed for food- stuffs as well as funds, the Nazi regime has taken over large estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism."(Source: Time Magazine; Jaunuary 2, 1939.) Hitler was a socialist from the beginning till the end. Read his writings. I posted the Time Magazine for they were so happy that Europe was going left at the time without really looking at what those leftist were doing.
What about it? If you are suggesting that the definition of socialism I gave and the National Socialists party (under Hitler) are the same, I don't see it. There are distinct differences between the two... Socialism is seen as a negative by some, but I see those people as negative too, so it kinda cancels out... ...IMO, the very fact that we are alive is thanks to a form of socialism. I mean, if everyone on Earth were extreme anti-socialists they'd kill each other on sight... so we're all a bit socialistic when you think about it...
I posted a comment in your other thread on this Andy using some of the same info as Moen used (possibly the same source) but ask yourself this if by the time Hitler took power he was still a Socialist then what were the elite that he surrounded himself with? Gorring was no Socialist, nor was Himmler, nor Ripentroff, and most certainly the German Army/Navy/Airfoce High Command was not Socialist (most of them were of the Aristocracy) There were a few who you might call working class such as Sepp Detrich but they were in the minority
Nationalism and Socialism by Hermann Göring My dear citizens! We are living through a National Socialist revolution. We emphasize the term “socialist” because many speak only of a “national” revolution. Dubious, but also wrong. It was not only nationalism that led to the breakthrough. We are proud that German socialism also triumphed. Unfortunately, there are still people among us today who emphasize the word “national” too strongly, and who do not want to know anything about the second part of our worldview, which shows that they have also failed to understand the first part. Those who do not want to recognize a German socialism do not have the right to call themselves national. Only he who emphasizes German socialism is truly national. He who refuses to speak of socialism, who believes in socialism only in the Marxist sense, or to whom the word “socialism” has an unpleasant ring, has not understood the deepest meaning of nationalism. He has not understood that one can only be a nationalist when one sees social problems openly and clearly. And on the other hand, one can only be a socialist when he clearly sees that nationalism must triumph to protect the living space of a people from outside forces. Just as nationalism protects a people from outside forces, so socialism serves a people’s domestic needs The source: Hermann Göring, “Nationalismus und Sozialismus: Rede auf der NSBO. im Berliner Sportpalast am 9. April 1933,” Hermann Göring: Reden und Aufsätze (Munich: Zentralverlag der NSDAP, 1941), pp. 36-49.
It's called rhetoric Andy, dont mean the man believed in it LOL Herman came from a Aristocratic family he married a Aristocrat and when he came to power he lived the life of a Aristocrat Try reading up on the man and not basing your opinion simply on what he said to the masses
Here is anothe one of Hermans Göring spoke about war and extreme nationalism to Captain Gilbert, as recorded in Gilbert's Nuremberg Diary: Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. You might notice here he uses the term Extreem Nationalism and not Socialism
Perhaps my friend you should read up on the wealth that he stole when he was with the Nationalistic Socialist Party. Was he a true believer, only he knew. But his words were and the actions of the party were what the party leaders said. I think people have been told so long one thing about the this subject that it is hard to grasp what really was and it was a racist nationalistic socialist movement that caused brought hell to earth. As I said before and i say again, thank god for the independents and the moderates for the left when in absolute power kills beter then the right when in absolute power.
Sorry but not buying that. The German people followed hitler because that is what they wanted. I already posted Engels and it is just about word for word like a hitler speech. They had tape recorders. They had filmed the Nuremberg trails. Was this quote ever taped or filmed. And how was a man in prison able to obtain poison. Just PR to clean things up so that the transformation to what Germany is today could begin.
Ah so because you posted something by Engles that sound somewhat like a speach that Hitler might have made then anything any one else says is irrelevent? is that it Andy Most political speaches sound very much alike try listning to Mussolini or the lunatic in Iran or Sadam As to how he got the poison I realy dont know Andy but as he was allready sentenced to hang it hardly seems likely that it was a plot by the west to silence him add to that he had allready been given as much oppertunity to say what he wanted to say in a open courtroom!!
Virtually all of our European allies have strong Socialist Parties as part of their functioning governments. I think that is far more relevant than some long dead psychopath that took his country and the world and destroyed millions of lives across the globe using any political tools that happened to fit his agenda at the time. The implication of course is that any Socialism is now bad because Hitler used aspects of Socialism in this rise to power. Looking at our current allies, this implication couldn't be more inane.
"I want to do it because they did it." That did not even work with my mother when I was a kid. Why should it work with governments?
None of Hitler's thoughts was original. The Germans were attracted to him for he symbolized and preached what was the German mindset of the time and that mindset itself shaped Hitler from a boy to the adult who symbolized then German Values. 1. Master Race = tons of research was done into the impact of Darwinian ethics on German thought in the pre-Nazi era and its ultimate influence on Hitler's ideology One of the leaders before Hitler came to power was the physician Alfred Ploetz, the founding father of the race hygiene or eugenics movement in Germany, whose goal was to improve human heredity by rationally controlling reproduction. 2. The term anti-Semitism was coined by German journalist Wilhelm Marr in 1879. He also set up the League of Anti-Semites. Throughout the 19th century bitterness towards the Jews continued to rise, partly because Jews had began to move up in society when they had won rights. When the May Laws of 1882 forced Jews to leave their towns and move into cities, this caused more ecomonic as well as cultural success for the Jewish population which was unparalleled for the time. 3. True, it is a fixed idea with the French that the Rhine is their property, but to this arrogant demand the only reply worthy of the German nation is Arndt's: "Give back Alsace and Lorraine". For I am of the opinion, perhaps in contrast to many whose standpoint I share in other respects, that the reconquest of the German-speaking left bank of the Rhine is a matter of national honour, and that the Germanisation of a disloyal Holland and of Belgium is a political necessity for us. Shall we let the German nationality be completely suppressed in these countries, while the Slavs are rising ever more powerfully in the East?" Friedrich Engels, Karl Marx's co-author 4. Hitler Promised the Germans in his speeches and his writings of a thousand years of German rule over Europe, the creation of a "Thousand-Year Reich." -'This is our calling, that we shall become the templars of this Grail, gird the sword round our loins for its sake and stake our lives joyfully in the last, holy war which will be followed by the thousand-year reign of freedom." Friedrich Engels, Karl Marx's co-author 5. I could go on and on but the bottom line was that Hitler did not play on people's fears, he did not manipulate them, Hitler just told them what they wanted to hear for it was his belief and the German mindset of the time. Sorry but it is true Hitler was a Nationalist Socialist, only wanted it for the pure German race that he will help shape, and the vast majority of German people loved him for he did not only lead them but represented him. The miltary saw a chance for untold glory, the industrialist thought they could control him but either were taken over or played ball and made millions more from slave labor, taking out of competition and feeding the war machine. Goring was either killed or allowed to die by being provided with posion after being locked up and awaiting trial which meant he was directly or indirectly silenced for various reasons which I will not go into at this time for it takes us off the subject that the Germans followed Hitler for that was what they wanted to do and Hitler was a nationalistic socialist.
Hitler did not use aspects of Socialism. He was a Socialist. The type of Socialism was Nationalistic Socialism which for him based upon his writings was socialism but only for the German people. "If the National Socialist Movement should fail to understand the fundamental importance of this essential principle, if it should merely varnish the external appearance of the present State and adopt the majority principle, it would really do nothing more than compete with Marxism on its own ground. For that reason it would not have the right to call itself a philosophy of life. If the social programme of the movement consisted in eliminating personality and putting the multitude in its place, then National Socialism would be corrupted with the poison of Marxism, just as our national-bourgeois parties are" - From Hitler's all time best selling book in Germany. "The National Socialist Movement, which aims at establishing the National Socialist People’s State, must always bear steadfastly in mind the principle that every future institution under that State must be rooted in the movement itself". - From Hitler's all time best selling book in Germany.
What do Socialist government usually do with respect to organized religions? Ask yourself this and then look up the role the church played in Nazi Germany. Not so Socialist after all eh? Like I said, Socialism was just one tool in Hitler's arsenal and trying to relate Socialism as the exclusive method Hitler used in his rise to power is just a fool's argument. How do you completely ignore all of our allies that helped defeat Hitler that mix socialism into their governments? All Socialism really means in the broadest sense is that the workers have a voice in society. I would never want to see a completely Socialist government or a completely Capitalist government or a completely Communist government. Any one of these forms of government taken to the extreme and exclusive implementation of all the tenets of their core principles is bound to fail because society is more complicated than one system of government can address. The best aspects of all these systems should be incorporated if you are going to have a successful government. Unfortunately, they all try to assert their power over the others and gain as much of the pie under their control as possible. When any one of them gains too much power, revolution is inevitable.
Religious freedom, or the lack thereof, have much more to do with social liberties than economic models.
I wouldn't have to tell them that. They would certainly know that their state atheism was do to social liberty being suppressed by an authoritarian, single party dictatorship not by their socialistic economic model. Nothing in capitalism or socialism has much of anything to do with religious freedom. That falls into the realm of whether you live in an Authoritarian or Libertarian social system.
Really? Does someone need to explain to you the differences between social systems and economic systems?
Hitler was known to have said that Jesus was the first Socialist. Hitler was also known to want to go back to the Aryan religions. Hitler youth was being taught this. My whole point of the thread is that the left when unchecked is deadly. Look at USSR. The first thing they did with the socialist was to either kill or send them off to siberia to die in work camps. What did National Socialist Workers party do when Hitler had unchecked power, kill all of the communists. This was not meant to deface all socialist. The Socialist/communist parties ideas brought many wonderful things to this nation regarding legal amount of work day hours/work week, social security, anti-child labor laws, workplace safety/health requirements, I could go on but I am speaking to the preacher regarding the postive but we can not also forget the negative. Just look at the killing fields of cambodia and ask yourself whatever happened to, "never again".
