Intercessory Prayer

If they are truly desperate I think that rather than praying about it their time would be better spent getting together with their neighbors and the members of their communities and trying to figure out how they might help each other deal with what's going on. As for the horses, releasing them into the wild to fend for themselves seems to be adding a large dose of cruelty to an already terrible situation. These people have guns don't they?

 

Actually, yeah... that is the way it works... for some. Mocking desperate people? IYO. Mocking religious people? IMO. Pleasure? Not really.... more like a sadness to see so many people praying for rain. If it offends you... I'm ok with that too, I'm offended by lots of stuff too, and it's our right to be offensive and offended.

EVERYthing is mock-worthy to me.

 

How do you fix rain? Why *not* pray, if it gives a person strength to cope? As to the horses, not everyone who owns a horse is mentally strong enough to shoot their animal, even if it's suffering. With no existing market for horses right now, some people consider releasing them to be giving them a chance they might not otherwise have. (NB: I don't support that decision or agree with it, but I do understand it.) There are also people who put their starving horses into unlocked horse trailers with well-kept horses, especially at shows or whatever. Desperate people do desperate things. Just because we don't understand what people do or why they do it doesn't mean that we should mock what they do to take comfort.

 

So, religious people can't be desperate? Desperate people can't be religious? What is it about people taking comfort from prayer that makes you feel sad? What is it about mocking people that comforts you? I'm honestly curious, since it doesn't seem to be a very healthy way to live, in my opinion.

 

I'm not mocking I'm just trying to be practical. You can't fix rain, but there must be ways to cope that are better than others. If praying gives you the strength to suffer and that's how you want to deal with the lack of rain that's fine. But it doesn't help the horses. Maybe they should pray for the strength to end their horses' misery as humanely as possible.

 

That I'd agree with. However, not everyone who owns a horse is religious, so prayer isn't an option in all cases. What I'm trying to figure out is why non-religious people seem to think that praying paralyzes a person and makes them incapable of anything else. People who pray don't typically sit around twiddling their thumbs and waiting for things to happen once they've prayed. It's a spiritual tool, for lack of a better characterization, and a tool with multiple uses at that.

 

Prayer as a spiritual tool I think I get. But I'm talking about intercessory prayer. Which as I understand it involves asking God to do something that he wouldn't have done on his own in the absence of such a request. And this doesn't make sense to me.

 

Intercessory prayer goes back thousands of years. It exists in virtually every religion. Even Jesus asked God to intercede with His fate, asking God to "take this cup from me" when He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus didn't expect God to make everything better, instantly. He didn't even expect God to do what He asked. Rather, it was a way of communicating His despair and making a desperate attempt to find an alternative to dying. Even Jesus was human enough to prefer life over death, even though He knew he would ascend to Heaven.

Desperation is often part of intercessory prayer. Sometimes, even when you don't expect a positive resolution, intercessory prayer ("giving it up to God") often helps the person praying unburden him- or herself and move forward.

 

Okay, one last comment and then I need to get some writing for money AND writing for NaNoWriMo done. I have the Saints game on and Tracy Porter gave/took a big hit during a tackle. He's been down on the field for a few minutes and they brought out the cart and the backboard to move him. The Saints have knelt in prayer for their team mate (who still has not been removed on the field) and there is silence on the Tampa side of the field, out of respect. The Saints know that he is going to stay hurt, even if they pray, but they are asking for God to watch over him and help him in his time of need.

Porter is just coming off the field now and the crowd on both sides of the filed are cheering him. He's not paralyzed, thank God, because he heard their cheers and raised his arm in a "thumbs up" signal. It's going to be a good and hard-fought game, I think. I know I'll be praying for Porter today, too, even if it provides no direct aid to him.

 

That's called "jumping to conclusions", and it is a bad habit.

It's a matter of perspective. My comment, that for some people it's as simple as praying for rain and waiting until it eventually happens, affirming their belief, is accurate. You, being religious, consider that comment to be mocking religion. Maybe it is somewhat, since I'm not bound by any religion, but it is an accurate description of faith for some.

As for mocking giving me comfort, once again... that's your (incorrect) assumption. If your intent was to shame me into not commenting further in a way you view as negative, you are out of luck. Free will and freedom of speech an' all that...

Individuals can take all the comfort they want by praying... I have no issue with it, even encouraging it at times. That doesn't mean I have to believe the group act of praying... and receiving comfort from the act... for the purpose of making it rain in Texas, is a good thing overall. It saddens me to know so many people delude themselves, and in some instances, force others to accept their delusions.

Again you, being religious, may have issues with my opinions, and that's ok, it's only my opinion.

 

I didn't jump to any conclusions. I was asking questions, because I didn't understand your statements. Hence, the question marks. I think you'll find me to be a very blunt person in my own way. I don't try to shame anyone into anything, since it's dishonest. However, I don't feel that I'm jumping to conclusions to say that you take comfort in mocking others. You apparently use your behavior to feel superior to other people; however, you don't seem to realize how you are cutting yourself off from other people when you do that. If you do, then I'm sorry for that, since doing something of that nature is similar to attacking a person instead of his or her argument: it means you start from a failed position. Your argument about people being deluded shows your contempt for faith and for prayer, though, and it saddens me.

I am sorry that you feel people with faith are deluded. I hope you can take comfort within your self when times get really tough. I assume you feel that it's more realistic to stand on your own two feet and "take responsibility" for everything that happens to you in the world. That's fine, but I wonder what happens when your "self" isn't enough? I'm not trying to convert you--just offering it as something to think about.

 

There seems to be a confusion as to the different types of prayer. The basic prayer, which almost every believer practises at some point or the other in their life, is supplication. This is the asking for something from god. Most times it is asking for favors; but there's also asking for help in difficulties.

Intercessory prayer is asking for something on behalf of someone else. This does not include prayers of a group asking for help for the group itself. That would still be a supplication. Intercessory is something like a person praying for a loved one to be healed, etc.

And then there's devotional prayer. This is simply a singing of praise for god. The problem here is that most people praise god only to receive favors from him. But that would be a wrong motive for the prayer. Or rather it would be a supplication in disguise.

Now, a desperate person praying for help is not the same as a troubled person praying for peace of mind. And supplication and intercession is not the highest form of prayer. The highest is that which doesn't ask for anything; but says simply: "Thy will be done."

The people who usually practise the lower forms of prayer are the type who try to bargain with god. "Give me this, and I promise to do this" is the typical prayer of such people. And it conveys the impression that god is too blind to see the problems, so people have to point them out to him.

 

In cases like this prayer can work. In moments of high stress we are capable of working our selves up pretty good. But if it's god behind it, or the unburdening as you say. I think that has more to with what's going on. Reality is what you make of it. You can sit and worry about problems as they continue to accumulate or you can act to address them. It all depends on your perception. If prayer helps you to make that perception change then practically speaking it has worked.

But consider this. As your being swept along down the river and your unable to fight the undertow much longer you in your desperation pray to God for deliverance. Then you notice ahead of you there is a sturdy branch attached to a large felled tree that you can reach and pull your self out of the river. Was it the prayer that saved you? I think maybe it could be. When you shift your view of something you can often find a solution. a focused person can spot things better than a panicking person.

I don't think God has a hand in prayer. If God exist then his ways are not only different than ours but vastly so. I'm sure children who spend their lives locked inside of their parent's closet pray quite a bit. This is where the idea of a omnipotent, benevolent God seems to falter for me. Benevolence seems like wishful thinking to me. Things just tend to happen sometimes. The only way things happen for a reason, are real practical reasons. Your floating down the river because you fell out of your boat in some rapids for instance. The child is locked away because his parents have some serious problems that need to be addressed. Help comes from either you or other people

 

If a prayer gives someone solace then why rain on there parade? after all it causes you no grief and costs you nothing. The same goes for asking that others who might have a similar view of things to say a prayer for another in distress will cause the non believer no harm but might well bring a feeling of not been alone to the recipient.
Believe in itself can be quite a powerful tool

 

I don't. I'm not a member of a single religious forum that deals with a single religion specifically. I restrict my content to areas designed for open exchange of ideas. But despite my views of other peoples practices I typically stay respectful. I only have a problem with religions when they start harming people. If someone took me to a church and they started pulling out snakes. My proximity to the snake combined with how much prior knowledge I had of the snake would determine how much of a scene I would cause. Anything from amusement to terrible acts of snake directed barbarism inside a church. It could be really bad potentially. If a venomous snake were put on me, at some point I would say and do a few things that religious people would find deeply offensive I'm sure. But prayer? Not so much. Only when my bitch of an aunt insist we do it at family meals with her smug attitude. =D

 

LOL cant argue with that

 

My problem with the whole "pray for rain" thing in Texas was because they made a media circus out of it.
And.
They made it an official state proclamation as an official state sponsored event.
Gov. Perry Issues Proclamation for Days of Prayer for Rain in Texas

 

I can understand that I was talking more along the lines of if someone has experienced a death of a family member or close friend or suffering from a illness When it gets blown up into a circus then that is something entierly diffrent

 

When politicians talk about god I just hear the escape of so much hot air anyway. So typically I ignore them when they do anything religious, I just rack it up to them polishing their public image.

 

Is there a contradiction here, or am I imagining it? You begin by saying prayer can work. Then you become a bit vague, so I can't follow your thought. But the first paragraph ends with the reiteration that "if prayer helps you...then...it has worked." So far, then, I can gather that you do agree that prayer works.

Then you take us sweeping down the river, and we're all praying desperately, and we see the branch which saves us. "Was it the prayer that saved you?" you ask. I'm not sure if you answered your own question. You say "maybe it could be." but then you go on to say that "when you shift your view...you can find a solution." So, was the appearance of the branch a result of the prayer, or the result of shifting your view?

"I don't think god has a hand in prayer." That's how you begin the third paragraph. "Things just happen sometimes. the only way things happen for a reason, are real practical reasons. Your floating down the river...for instance." What happened to the prayer? Did it work or not? Did the prayer bring about the practical reason? "Help comes from either you or other people." Yes, you did say that god doesn't have a hand in it. So, do we pray to other people? Because you did say that prayer can work.

Would you like to rethink the entire matter, or shall we leave it at that? Politicians tend to toss out such ambiguous statements, and while the people are trying to figure out what they mean, the politicians are stealing their prayers.