How Do Republican Working People Rationalize Being in the Republican Party???

Just curious here and would love to hear from some of our resident Right wingers. How do you rationalize being in a party that does everything it can to undermine your rights as working people? Without falling back on ideology/narrative rhetoric, please explain how you can side with a political party that is treating both the Democrat and Republican Wisconsin State workers the way Gov. Walker is and still be loyal to the conservative movement.

If my political party were doing this to me, I'd drop them in a microsecond. What exactly is it that you tell yourselves that keeps you coming back? If there is a reasonable answer to this question, I'd love to hear it.

 

Oklahoma is a Right-to-Work state and has been since the law was signed on September 18, 2001. The law is as follows:

OKLAHOMA

Okla. Const. art. XXIII

Okla. Const. art. 23, § 1A provides:
A. As used in this section, "labor organization" means any organization of any kind, or agency or employee representation committee or union, that exists for the purpose, in whole or in part, of dealing with employers concerning wages, rates of pay, hours of work, other conditions of employment, or other forms of compensation.

B. No person shall be required, as a condition of employment or continuation of employment, to:

1. Resign or refrain from voluntary membership in, voluntary affiliation with, or voluntary financial support of a labor organization;

2. Become or remain a member of a labor organization;

3. Pay any dues, fees, assessments, or other charges of any kind or amount to a labor organization;

4. Pay to any charity or other third party, in lieu of such payments, any amount equivalent to or pro rata portion of dues, fees, assessments, or other charges regularly required of members of a labor organization; or

5. Be recommended, approved, referred, or cleared by or through a labor organization.

C. It shall be unlawful to deduct from the wages, earnings, or compensation of an employee any union dues, fees, assessments, or other charges to be held for, transferred to, or paid over to a labor organization unless the employee has first authorized such deduction.

D. The provisions of this section shall apply to all employment contracts entered into after the effective date of this section and shall apply to any renewal or extension of any existing contract.

E. Any person who directly or indirectly violates any provision of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

Oklahoma is a very conservative state. Our government certainly doesn't undermine the rights of the working people. We don't have protesters at the State Capitol simply because there's no need to protest. Unemployment in Oklahoma (at 6.6%) is lower than Wisconsin (7.0%) or Illinois (8.8%).

Let's take a look at some statistics:


OKLAHOMA
Sales Taxes
State Sales Tax: 4.5% (prescription drugs exempt); cities, towns and counties may levy local sales taxes. The county tax cannot exceed 2% but some cities have sales taxes over 4.25%.
Gasoline Tax: 17 cents/gallon
Diesel Fuel Tax: 14 cents/gallon
Gasohol Tax: 17 cents/gallon
Cigarette Tax: $1.03/pack of 20
Personal Income Taxes
Tax Rate Range: * Low - 0.5%; High - 5.5%
Income Brackets: Lowest - $1,000; Highest - $8,700
Number of Brackets: 7
Personal Exemptions: Single - $1,000; Married - $2,000; Dependents - $1,000
Property Taxes
Real property is assessed at an amount between 11% and 13.5% of its fair cash value. Oklahoma offers a homestead exemption for homeowners which reduces the property's assessed value by $1,000. In most cases this will result in a tax savings of $80 to $120. If gross household income is under $20,000 a year or less and you meet all of the homestead exemption requirements, you may qualify for an additional $1,000 exemption. A property tax refund worth up to $200 is available if you are 65 or older, or totally disabled, and have an income of $12,000 or less. There is a 100% property tax exemption for disabled veterans. Veterans and the surviving spouse of a veteran may also qualify for a property tax exemption.

WISCONSIN
Sales Taxes
State Sales Tax: 5% (food and prescription drugs exempt). Most counties have adopted a 0.5% sales tax which is added to the state tax.
Gasoline Tax: 32.9 cents/gallon
Diesel Fuel Tax: 32.9 cents/gallon
Cigarette Tax: $2.52 cents/pack of 20
Personal Income Taxes
Tax Rate Range: * Low - 4.6%; High - 7.75%. The state's 2009-2011 budget includes a new 7.75 percent income tax bracket on all income over $300,000 for married couples and $225,000 for individuals and heads of households. And the exclusion for capital gains income was lowered to 30 percent from 60 percent.
Property Taxes
Homeowners and renters whose household income is less than $24,680 can benefit from the homestead credit program that is designed to soften the impact of property taxes on persons with low income. The credit is based on the relationship of household income to the amount of allowable property taxes and/or rent for the calendar year. Wisconsin also has a school property tax credit that is available to homeowners. It is actually a credit against Wisconsin income tax liability. Details on the state's property tax system can be found here. For information on the Homestead Credit, click here.

ILLINOIS
Sales Taxes
State Sales Tax: 6.25% (1% on qualifying food, prescription & non-prescription drugs, medical appliances). Local government taxes can raise the total to a high of 11.5%.
Gasoline Tax: * 39.4 cents/gallon
Diesel Fuel Tax: 43 cents/gallon
Cigarette Tax: 98 cents/pack of 20 (In Chicago, the state and local rate is $3.66; Evanston is $3.48), Cicero is $3.14, Rosemont is $3.03, cities with no tax in Cook County - $2.98)
* Tax rates do not include local options - 5 cents in Chicago and 6 cents in Cook county.
Personal Income Taxes
Tax Rate Range: Flat rate of 3% of federal adjusted gross income received in 2010 increases to 5 percent for income received in 2011.
Personal Exemptions: Single - $2,000; Married - $4,000; Dependents - $2,000
Standard Deduction: None
Medical/Dental Deduction: health insurance and long-term care insurance premiums are deductible.
Federal Income Tax Deduction: None
Property Taxes
Taxes are imposed by local government taxing districts (counties, townships, municipalities, school districts, and special taxing districts. Most property in the state is assessed at 33.33% of its market value, except farmland which is based on its ability to produce income. Cook County has different criteria. Single family residences are assessed at 16%.

Oklahoma is a very good state to live in and one of those reasons is its non-union stance. Unions suck so much of the lifeblood out of workers, enslave them to the union system, force them to pay dues and give so little in return. My personal observations of unions has been very negative.

Anyway, weakening the crooked union system is fine by me.

 

Really??

Oklahoma Joins Wisconsin, Moves to Repeal Collective Bargaining Rights

Feb 23, 2011 – 6:37 PM
David Knowles

It seems to be catching.

Joining states such as Wisconsin, Indiana and Ohio in an effort to take away worker rights, a House committee in Oklahoma approved a bill that would drastically restrict collective bargaining for Related Stories
Collective Bargaining: A Brief History of the Key Issue in the Wisconsin Standoff
workers in 13 cities around the state.

Unlike in Wisconsin, however, Oklahoma's bill would also deal a blow to police and firefighter unions, greatly altering their ability to negotiate via binding arbitration when contract talks with state and local officials fail.

HB 1576 now heads to the full House in Oklahoma for a vote. As The Oklahoman reported, Republican Rep. Randy Terrill has called the bill one of the toughest anti-union measures in years.

But you haven't even begun to answer the question in the OP.

 

Speaking as a working person and an American citizen, I have much more faith in the Rep party than I do the Dim party when it comes to the good of the country.
Personally, I oppose entitlement programs that are designed to keep people in poverty. They are bad for the country & bad for the people endentured by them.
I don't agree the government knows better than I do when it comes to what's good for me & my family.
I don't agree with the Dims celebrating infanticide.

 

Again, political narrative devoid of factual details. I guess that is redundant.

 

How Corporate Right Lies About Union Corruption

Well, the corporate right has launched a new anti-labor front group called UnionFacts.org, dealing in dark tales of union corruption promoted by the former head of the Beverage institute, the nice folks who tell the public soda pop has no role in childhood obesity.
But it's a good chance to walk folks through how corporations lies about things like union corruption. Not that among the 15 million union members and tens of thousands of union staff, there aren't a few bad folks, but what's amazing is how much the opposition has to lie and pump up the numbers to make it seem at all significant.
For example, check out the site's page on "Union Leader Fraud & Corruption". They list $400 million in "labor racketeering" fines and civil restitution in the last five years.
Sounds bad for the union leaders, but since the information come from the Labor Departments Office of Inspector General, let's go to that department's labor racketeering site.. Check out their Statistics page on the righthand side and, yep, there are the same numbers as on the anti-union site.
But let's look in more detail at what counts as "labor racketeering" by readng the most recent "Semi-Annual Report to the Congress" by the Office. It's a PDF so scroll down to page 33 where the Labor Racketeering part starts. Some of the problems are very real, including fighting crime influence on the east coast longshoremen union, but when you get to the money fines, suddenly the defendants largely stop being union officials, but instead are businesses that defrauded the unions-- ie. the union leaders were the victims not the criminals. Here are a few examples:
Peter Wong, who controlled Pacific Group Medical Association (PGMA), pled guilty on June 14, 2005, to charges of insurance fraud and money laundering. In 1997, PGMA failed with more than $18 million in unpaid medical claims, making it one of the largest health plan failures in Hawaii’s history. PGMA had provided health coverage for 26,000 people, including members of the United Public Workers Union Local 646.
On August 22, 2005, Robert Boyd, a former Evergreen Securities Ltd. official, was sentenced to 37 months imprisonment and three years probation. On October 3, 2005, Martin Boelens, Jr., another company official, was sentenced to 46 months imprisonment and three years of supervised release. Both were ordered to pay more than $25 million and $14 million respectively, in restitution for fraudulently obtaining monies from investors and pension funds to be used for their personal benefit and that of others.
In April 2005, Dennis Lambka and Ronald Bray, officers of Simplified Employment Services, were sentenced to 54 months and 60 months in prison respectively, and both received three years probation. They were also ordered to pay, jointly and severally, restitution of $55,136,267. Lambka and Bray previously pled guilty to charges of conspiracy to commit the following offenses: embezzlement from an employee benefit plan; defrauding the United States; and bank fraud. Restitution will be paid to the victims of the embezzlement schemes which resulted in unpaid medical bills.
In fact, almost all of the big money associated with the $400 million figure in labor racketeering was committed by private industry AGAINST unions, not by union officials.
But that's how you lie with statistics. Throw around a word like "labor racketeering" while only talking about union officials and leave the impression that the crime only involves acts by unions, not acts where unions and their members are the victims.
Any union illegal conduct should be rooted out, but in a world of multi-billion corporate corruption, unions are pure as snow, especially in compared to the criminals running corporate America.

 

I don't know why police and firefighters need unions more than any other group. In fact, I've seen what the police and firefighters unions are capable of and it ain't pretty! If an employer wants to hire you, they will. If you want to work for an employer, you will. Unions aren't needed. If you don't like your pay, working conditions, hours, benefits, retirement plans, etc. you're more than welcome to go somewhere better. Down with unions!

 

So essentially you are against workers having any voice whatsoever no matter what the issue. They should take what they get and shut up. Is that right?

 

Suppose you tell me how one is supposed to choose a political party without using politics in the decision?
If I need to go into further detail in order that you understand just let me know.

 

If an employer offers a job and a person accepts the job, why are unions required? If you want a raise, ask for it. If you don't get it, you're welcome to quit. If you want different working conditions, ask for them. If you don't get them, you're welcome to quit. A union is basically just a group of people asking for something instead of one person asking for something. If they don't get what they want, they're welcome to leave. But, if anyone refuses to work the employer has every right to dismiss them.

 

Spot on!
I have had 3 employers in my adult life, one was union so I can speak from experience. In a non-union position you can benefit by working harder & achieving more. In a union shop the exact opposite is encouraged. In a union shop, the weaker performers are protected at the expense of the harder workers, zapping all motivation. Kinda like in school if everyone was given the same grade regardless of achievement.

 

Is that a yes or a no to my question?

So the days of child labor, ethnic discrimination, dangerous working conditions, police shooting workers, were just fine with you? And now you think that those days will not return? And who do you think ridded this country of those practices?

 

Do you really believe the unions are necessary to assure employees aren't being shot by their employers these days? Or the Irish are being discriminated against? Or that children will be recruited to work in factories? C'mon.

 

Well, let's see...

Indiana deputy AG fired after he urged police to 'use live ammunition' on protesters

Wisconsin protests: Indiana deputy AG fired for urging police to 'use live ammunition' | Mail Online

Thank goodness that this guy was fired for his position but knowing that there are people in prominent positions that feel free enough to actually say such things in public, gives me enough of a reason to fear that it may eventual come to pass.

Then there was the guy in Georgia the other day that stood up and asked a Republican Congressman Paul Broun who is going to shoot Obama. The congressman chuckled a bit and then dodged the question. If people are so openly voicing comments like these, how far down the line is the actual event?

Then there was this incident:

“Peaceful protests against the implementation of the secretive policies of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America were successfully held in nine US cities over the weekend despite one demonstration organizer having a gunshot round fired into his home early on Saturday morning.”

Then this is this opinion which I will not print here.
Re: Protesters shot/Union bullys/Why is pot not legal ?


So to answer your question, YES! Or more aptly...HELL YES!

 

Now that is a good question. I applaud you just for asking it.

Both the Republicans and the Democrats have their political narratives. We all know what we think our party of choice stands for no matter how many times or how many actual events prove exactly the opposite to be true. I find that Democrats accept the contradictions of their own political party as the unavoidable consequences of not living in a perfect world. You get some, you give some. Republicans handle the unavoidable contradictions of their political party by pretending they don't exist or that they are not contradictions at all. Denial by any other name is still a river in Egypt.

So what are we left with when you ask, "how is one supposed to choose a political party without using politics in the decision?" The only way that makes any sense is to gather facts devoid of political narratives because political narratives are essentially just stories. Facts are stubborn things. They don't go away easily and they tend to cut through political narratives if, and only if you have the ability to parse out the facts from the narratives.

You have to look at both the Democrats and the Republicans political narratives with equal objectivity to find the facts that apply to the reality of the situations you're investigating. Most people are far too lazy to spend any amount of time and energy searching out the truth and would rather have the political narrative of choice spoon fed to them. I mean who wouldn't rather listen to some guy or pretty blond on TV tell them everything they believe is absolutely justified rather than do the mental leg work it takes to find out the truth?

That is why I hold out very little hope that anyone will actually take this advice and do anything with it. It just goes against human nature to not take the easy path.

 

See, I sorta see the process in reverse.
I don't need narratives, sound bites or pretty blonds to determine my beliefs. My beliefs developed over time, through everyday life, and I've decided the Repub way better suits me. This would be contrary to one who believes what he believes simply because the party told him so. Unfortunately, there are many on both sides who have fallen into this trap. I may not agree with everything the Rep party does but I agree with them a whole lot more than I do the Dims. Actually, I identify myself more as a Conservative than a Repub but way back when I registered it was more of an "either or" choice.

 

Around here, it seems to boil down a lot to religious issues and a vaguely defined, sometimes contradictory, distrust of big government and, of course, high taxes. At least above a certain income level. Less than ~30 or so a year and the religious, distrust and tax issues seem to matter much less.

 

I don't see much religious discussion around here at all. What am I missing?

 

By 'around here'...I was referring to where I live. But, now that I think about it, some of what I wrote applies 'around here' at PRWE too.

 

I guess it is just me, but I don't assume the beliefs of "some guy or pretty blond on TV" from either side. I was taught that you listen to both sides and make up you mind from the best (most factual) opinions presented. That may or may not agree with either side.