What is BO really up to?

At least when it passes...there will now be at least the core of something to modify...much to the displeasure on the right, which is why they fought/fight so hard to "kill the bill". WAA. Much easier to modify something that's already there than to create something from scratch.

The big money right wing doesn't like ir so it has to be correct.

 

There is however, a Left wing theory, and I did say Left wing, that this is just a gift to the insurance companies because it gives them 30 million new customers with no public option to keep them honest. Sure they can't drop people, but what prevents them from denying this or that procedure?

I heard Norman Goldman the other day say that the Democrats have move right and the Right has moved into the lunie bin. Obama is far more Right wing than I am comfortable with. The whole fight my just be pretend and insurance companies are getting exactly what they want. If this bill passes or fails the American people are going to be the ones getting screwed.

 

Again, the latest CBO estimate: The price tag: The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimates that the Democrats' revised health care bill will cost $940 billion over the next 10 years, a House Democratic source told CNN on Thursday. The bill cuts the deficit by $130 billion during that period of time, according to the source.

So I guess if you believe the Republicans, we can't afford to cut the deficit. When you consider that they found it necessary to spend 1.8 trillion on Iraq and kept it off the books without batting an eye, what could they possibly say against a bill that is on the books and covers the uninsured without sounding like a bunch of partisan hacks?

 

Senate G.O.P. Leader Finds Weapon in Unity

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/17/us/politics/17mcconnell.html

WASHINGTON — Before the health care fight, before the economic stimulus package, before President Obama even took office, Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican minority leader, had a strategy for his party: use his extensive knowledge of Senate procedure to slow things down, take advantage of the difficulties Democrats would have in governing and deny Democrats any Republican support on big legislation.

Republicans embraced it. Democrats denounced it as rank obstructionism. Either way, it has led the two parties, as much as any other factor, to where they are right now. Republicans are monolithically against the health care legislation, leaving the president and his party executing parliamentary back flips to get it passed, conservatives revived, liberals wondering what happened.

In the process, Mr. McConnell, 68, a Kentuckian more at home plotting tactics in the cloakroom than writing legislation in a committee room or exhorting crowds on the campaign trail, has come to embody a kind of oppositional politics that critics say has left voters cynical about Washington, the Senate all but dysfunctional and the Republican Party without a positive agenda or message.

But in the short run at least, his approach has worked. For more than a year, he pleaded and cajoled to keep his caucus in line. He deployed poll data. He warned against the lure of the short-term attention to be gained by going bipartisan, and linked Republican gains in November to showing voters they could hold the line against big government.

On the major issues — not just health care, but financial regulation and the economic stimulus package, among others — Mr. McConnell has held Republican defections to somewhere between minimal and nonexistent, allowing him to slow the Democratic agenda if not defeat aspects of it. He has helped energize the Republican base, expose divisions among Democrats and turn the health care fight into a test of the Democrats’ ability to govern.

And you really have to question why this legislation has taken so long to produce? You have an experienced obstructionist A-hole like McConnell using every trick in the book to prevent any legislation regardless of the merits of the legislation just to regain power. Crying about Democrats using tricks to pass this health care bill seems a bit disingenuous when you see what McConnell is throwing at them. If you’re a partisan hack like McConnell, you simply don’t care what is a good bill and what is a bad bill, you just want to defeat everything. I’m almost looking forward the Democrats being in the minority one day so they can play this game too. Thanks Mitch! You and your party have lowered the standards for our political process for the sake of power once again.

 

Freedom

We Americans left Europe and other nations for FREEDOM. If you do not have freedom you do not understand. No kings , Dictators , church and state combined. We have what you have never had and never will. You do not understand the unions in America, whether it is SEIU or the CA teachers union.
Wikipedia will not give you the experience of living here. We do not like Socialist or Communists but we do not make them leave. America is not Europe. Europe has fed off of our table for to long. We were there when you needed help. Do not forget the Americans that are buried across Europe from WW11.
To MOEN all men are created equal. What happens after birth is of their making.Some do well, some not so well. That is the system of a democratic republic. If you redistributed all the money in the country, in a few years the same people would have it back again.
When there are jobs our productivity per hour out strips any nation in the world by a large factor.
Freedom has a strong impact on our people and that is why we have done what no nation has in recorded history. Why define as right or left? why not be an American. That does not mean you have a passport !

Pep

 

So you are saying that you ARE a better American than the rest of us who don't share your views? You sort of rambled off on a tangent that basically didn't go anywhere.

 

LOL try not talking BS Pep the UK is the birthplace of Parlimentry democracy in case you did not know it, also many of those who fought for your Indipendence were British in case you had forgoten that and you woudnt have got it without the French. About the only place in Europe were a monachy holds any sway is Lichtanstine and Monaco The Church holds no sway over political life in this country, nor do we have a Dictator so yes I do think I have a perfectly good working knowladge of how a free society works.
As for leaving Europe for freedom who was it that outlawed slavery? well guess what it wasnt America, oh and not all Americans believed in your idea of freedom thats why many fought on the side of the British LOL.
Hell you talk of Freedom Look to your own History then talk to me about Freedom, you took away the rights of the states to cede from the Union at gunpoint, want to talk about the Freedom you showed to others in your colonization of the United States , your Anexation of parts of Mexico? Your attempted invasion of Canada? Your forays into South America!! How about your freedom to go to the school of your choice regardless of colour when did that one come about?
You woudnt know a Socialist or a Communist if they sat down next to you and as for your countrymen not liking them try telling that one to Henry Ford.
Sure many Americans have lost there lives in the defence of europe during 2 world wars but they have never been forgoton Pep you should try visiting some of the cemetries in France or Belgium but you were not there in either case at the start of either conflict were you? Dont forget that it was the UK who littrely stood alone against the might of Nazi Germany until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and even then it took a German declaration of War to bring you into the European conflict
Many of your politicians were all for letting Hitler have his way in Europe (Try looking up Joe Kennedy and his support of Chamberlins position( Oh and he also tried to meet with Hitler to bring about a better understanding between the United States and Germany)
Shall we talk about how many soldiers we in the UK have lost supporting America since WWII or dont you want reminding of that one. in closing dont assume because you lack knowladge of others that they in turn lack knowladge of you or you processes, nor should you assume that you have a greter degree of Freedom than another country just because you were brought up believing that.

 

Steve, you’ll have to forgive those Americans that try to quote bible verses as rational arguments. They are a small but vocal minority of bible thumping anti-intellectuals that learn more dogma than history. They are holier than the rest of us, better Americans than the rest of us, and “foreigners” are all evil to them. Why bother knowing any history if everyone else is just evil. You find a large number of these people in the American South. I don’t actually know where Pep lives but odds are, it is down south someplace. The Bible Belt is a source of national shame for the rest of us. Please ignore the ignorant ramblings of an uneducated rube. Pep does not represent the rest of us here in America.

 

Over the years I have met many Americans mostly service personel and on the whole I have allways had a very good opinion of them and yes I even liked southerners LOL Unfortunatly when someone tries to tell me I do not know what Freedom means then I will react It does come as a bit of a shock to many Americans when they find that yes I actualy do understand ther society quite well (of course there are aspects that are alien to me, even in my own culture LOL) I was the only European mod on a sports card forum for a number of years (and it was one of the biggest) and there I constantly suprised Americans with my understanding and appreciation of Baseball as well as Ice Hockey (I even collect the trading cards LOL)
I have met attitudes similar to Pep's before and in most instances have managed to widen the persons horizons to beyond the borders of (in some cases there own state) to encompass the world
Americans I have found can be generouse to a fault (And sometimes that is there biggest problem, people take advantage) but then again they can be very insular, heck I even had one kid ask me what state the UK was in!!

 

I agree it ain't perfect Moen. It is left wing and it is what it is. It is a huge step in the correct direction however. Share some of the wealth for the bigger majority of folks versus the fewer more privileged. It is the RIGHT thing to do, and it p*sses off the right wing moneybags. What more could you want?

 

Wouldn't you all agree that the "process" being used is indicative of the overall flawed-ness of this piece of legislation? That BO, Reid & Pelosi would have to resort to these measures to pass their vision of what America should look like betrays it's inherent crapiness. The point that no one on the left wants to acknowledge is simply that if BO could get the members of his own party on his side the bill would have cruised through months ago, right? Regardless of what the Repubs did, the dems could control the vote, right? How much tax payer money & political capital has BO wasted trying to woo members of his own party to support this governement takeover?

 

I would not agree and in fact I would call that assertion a stretch of professional contortionist proportions. You seem to think because Democrats don’t follow lock-step Republican obstructionism tactics that there must be some sort of flaw with this piece of legislation. A does not follow B.

Many of the Democrats that are not for this legislation either believe that it doesn’t go far enough (and they are right) or they are from conservative areas that have been targeted by AHIP the insurance lobbyists that have poured millions into ads trying to defeat health care reform.

You’ll just have to excuse the Democrats for not being single-mindedly ideologically driven like the GOP. That’s just not how the big tent rolls.

 

At least when it passes there will be someting to modify. Politics aside, that has to be the single most ignorant statement posted on this forum. We aren't talking about some minor, meaningless piece of Congressional drivel, we are talking about one of the largest pieces of legislation to ever come to a vote. Do you realize that if Congress acts irresponsibly and "just passes something" that "something" becomes law & gives BO unprecedented power over our country? Way more power than any prez should wield. Once "something" is passed the sense of urgency goes away & the legislation is ripe for abuse- pork, amendments, etc- that would have never been included in healthcare reform. Think about it.

 

What do you mean..politics aside? It's ALL ABOUT POLITICS on the right. Talk about ignorance. When pressed, the right says they have ideas too. How so? Why didn't they try and implement them sometime between 2001-2010? They only claimed to have ideas when the dems made it such an issue. Suddenly...they now have ideas. Gimme a break. The fact is that if SOMETHING doesn't pass...now..then that will have effectively squelched any remaining chance of it ever coming up again. It would, in effect, give the green light to those associated with costs (to the average or lower Joe because the rich will always have healthcare) to go ahead and the sky is the limit. Give us your home, your land, your complete wealth if you get sick. Happens everyday (just not to the rich). Yes. Pass SOMETHING. Fix it as needed. Pass NOTHING, AND YOU CONDEMN LOWER INCOME FOLKS TO COMPLETE SUBMISSION TO THE WEALTHY. We may be headed there anyway, but this would get it there a whole lot faster. Try and reign in some of these stuffed shirt bas**rds and we collectively might have a chance against them.

 

You call my post contortion? Me thinks you are wallowing in denial.
Answer this one, simple question:

If BO had total support from his own party, could this piece of legislation be passed (regardless what Republicans do)?

 

Class envy is no reason to pass this bill or any others.
You need to work harder, earn more & support your own family. Don't expect everyone else to sacrifice to pay for your shortcomings.

 

Of course it could have been David and a number of you here have for months heralded the fact that he had such a majority who followed him mindlessly!! I believe I asked the question a few times as to why if as is asserted by the right he has such power he has not implimented all his policies by now, but no one seems to have cared to respond?

 

Simple, this bill is so bad for the country that even his own followers can't hardly stomach it....can't really say that about anything else BO has championed, can you?

 

Oddly enough, I answered your question before you asked it. There is no lock-step Democratic Party. If there were, the president would be doing anything he wanted to do with his double majorities. Like I always say, and the Republican lock-step unity behavior always proves, the Democrats represent a wide variety of American interests ethnically, religiously, socioeconomically, gender equality wise, and so on, while the Republicans represent one thing....The highest bidder.

You seem to still be under the illusion that if every Democrat doesn't vote like the rest of the party, the bill must be flawed. I can't see any rationale behind that leap of logic but I'm sure you do somehow. Anytime you can get the majority of a wide variety of opinions to agree on anything, that says that there must be something good in this bill.

 

This is a good point Steve. If Obama supporters are such zombie followers, why doesn't he have 100% support from his own party? The fact is that if you want to see lock-step zombies, look to the GOP. They could reanimate Adolf Hitler and run him for president and the Democrats could reanimate Thomas Jefferson and the GOP party faithful would vote for Hitler unquestionably using some sort of twisted logic to justify why Hitler was better than Thomas Jefferson. I can hear their argument now: Hitler ran a country, he was commander-in-chief, he returned Germany to prosperity, he hated all the right groups,...heck, he'd get more votes than Palin with the fringe lunatics we have on the Right today. They do seem to like to carry signs with Hitler's face on them just like the original Nazis did.