[/quote] This response is so typical. Where do you get you so called research? I say it is all suppositions and lies. For instance, you automatically assume that I am a right wing republican who watches FOX news and loves Sean Hannity, OReilly and Rush Limbaugh. I will let you in on a little secret Tom, they are bigger clowns than you. I don't watch television with the exception of sports and movie channels and Bill Maher. I didn't even vote for George Bush because I thought he was an idiot. You don't know anything about me other than I collect coins and play poker. You on the other hand have admitted in this thread that most of what you post are ideas of the truther movement leaders. How can you call that thinking. Face it, you are nothing but a truther drone. As far as responding without insulting. I stopped doing that for two reasons. First, you have insulted me from the very start of this thread with every chance you could. Second, it is readily apparent that your sickness has advanced to an incurable state. Therefore, exposing you for the lunatic that you are is my only recourse. Now let me respond TomClown style: Ooops, sorry. I don't think I am capable of posting 8 continuous post of propaganda in a row. No matter, you will do it for me because it is my command. Now get to posting your propaganda Gilligan.
I guess you learned that from your wife who wanted to put your coin magnification tools to good use since you never bought any rare coins.
George Bush is a moron, so you say. Very good. I stand corrected if that's the what you claim. I mistook your patriotic, good old boy, comments as coming to the idiot's defense. My apologies.... You smoke doobies w/Bill Maher. Poker, doobies, and arrogance. I understand a little better now.
I know you'd rather have me post a single post and then have me wait a day or two for your brilliance to enlighten us all, but I have chosen to post repeatedly in the hopes that something will wake some folks up. I'm sorry for not checking with you first before making that decision, but, I figured I'd maybe get other people's opinions as well, and since your name isn't listed anywhere as proprieter, I went on ahead without you, hoping folks weren't as thick as you seem to be, and perhaps a little bit more honest with, at least themselves. I will continue on as I choose..thank you for your approval though Thurston, and may all of your pompous arrogance and blind ignorance, be one day, reprocated exponentially back to you, and in the same kind and humble fashion as you have demonstrated here. Now if you'll excuse me..and I know you won't..I have propaganda to research.
Black boxes found I believe some numbnuts early in this post, referenced something about someone finding black boxes. ---------------------------- According to the federal authorities controlling Ground Zero, the black boxes from the two crashed 767s, Flight 11 and Flight 175, failed to turn up in the rubble taken from the site. The 9/11 Commission Report backs the FBI's story, flatly stating: "The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found." There are accounts contradicting the official account of the black boxes. Two men who worked in the cleanup operation at Ground Zero claim that they helped authorities find three of the four black boxes in October of 2001. One of the workers, New York City firefighter Nicholas DeMasi, has self-published a book with other Ground Zero workers in which he describes the recovery of the devices. The book, Behind the Scenes: GROUND ZERO, A Collection of Personal Accounts, can be ordered through SummerOfTruth.org. So which is it?...they found them or they didn't.
911 Motives The 9/11 Commission Report endorses the official conspiracy theory, according to which the attacks of 9/11 were carried out solely by al-Qaeda, under the direction of Osama bin Laden. Although the Commission did not mention an alternative hypothesis, it was clearly seeking to undermine that idea's plausibility. One way to do this would be to show that, contrary to those who hold this hypothesis, the Bush administration did not have any interests or plans that could have provided a sufficient motive for arranging or at least allowing such murderous attacks on its own citizens. The Commission did not do this directly, by explicitly addressing the motives alleged by those who endorse the alternative hypothesis. But it did not do it indirectly, by portraying the Bush administration, and the US government more generally, as devoid of motives in question. The Kean-Zelikow Omission Commission, however, could provide this portrayal only by means of numerous omissions and distortions. Besides omitting the Bush administration's reference to the 9/11 attacks as "opportunities," (Bush stated that 911 was an opportunity) it omitted any discussion of the US Space Command, with its mission to solidify global dominance, and of the PNAC document, with its suggestion that a new Pearl Harbor would be helpful. It omitted historical facts showing that the Bush administration had plans to ATTACK BOTH Afghanistan and Iraq before 9/11, so that the attacks served as a pretext rather than a cause. And the Commission distorted US motives in those attacks, portraying US leaders as interested only in self-defense, human rights, and peace, not oil, bases, and geopolitical primacy.
911 Beneficiaries The official legend of the 9/11/01 attack is rather sparse on motive. Muslim extremists attacked the United States "because they hate our freedoms". This was the only motive articulated by the Bush Administration, but more rational motives were available to consumers of print media: perhaps Osama wanted to punish the United States for stationing troops in Saudi Arabia, and perhaps he wanted to provoke the United States into attacking Arab nations in order to recruit jihadists. But the issue of bin Laden's motive was never a big issue, since he had already been tried and convicted on TV on the day of the attack. All that was important is that he hated us, that lots of Arabs hated us, and that military action was required to stamp out the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan. Beneficiaries of the Attack The purely ideological motive ascribed to the elusive Osama bin Laden contrasts with the very tangible and material benefits that flowed to individuals and organizations within the power structures of the United States. Indeed, the number of beneficiaries is so large that attempting to identify them may shed little light on how the crime was perpetrated. Determining who had the means to execute the attack is more likely to lead to the individuals who planned and executed the attack. Despite the near certainty that the vast majority of beneficiaries had no operational role in the attack, it is clear that many worked to facilitate it, aided its coverup, and actively exploited the reaction to it. Since many of these actions involved commission of crimes, their investigation and prosecution could be instrumental in unravelling the vast crime of 9/11. Beneficiaries of the attack included the highest officials in the New York City and Federal governments, and corporations benefiting from policies enacted by those officials. George W. Bush enjoyed an immediate surge in popularity and the burying of investigative reports on electoral fraud by his brother Jeb's Republican election machine in Florida. "United We Stand" slogans propagated across the nation as Bush boasted of "smoking out" the terrorists. Rudolph Giuliani became an instant hero by immediately appearing for photo ops as the hands-on mayor at Ground Zero, and by taking command of the situation. He was exalted as Man of the Year by Time magazine while he managed the largest evidence destruction operation in history. The new War on Terror would become the umbrella for whole new levels of pork, unaccountability, and corruption in the nexus of government and industry that would fight the war. The weapons industries prepared for a new orgy of corporate welfare, as the Pentagon budget would be further bloated. Certainly we would need billion-dollar stealth bombers to smoke the elusive Osama bin Laden out of his cave. Vice President Cheney's company, Halliburton, would soon be getting fat no-bid contracts to rebuild the infrastructure that American bombs would destroy in Afghanistan and Iraq. The owner of the World Trade Center complex would receive a $3.6 billion payout for the destruction of the seven buildings, and would seek a second payout on the basis that the attack was two "occurrences" (because there were two plane crashes). Silverstein Properties had just acquired a 99-year lease on the World Trade Center, and a new insurance policy, in July of 2001. Silverstein would be ridded of those white elephants, the Twin Towers, with their obsolete office space and asbestos abatement problems. The Project for a New American Century got the new Pearl Harbor that it said would be needed to rapidly achieve its goals.
Bet you didn't know... One of the first actions by Congress in the wake of the attack was to pass an airline bailout, $5 billion in cash and an additional $10 billion in loan guarantees. President Bush passed the bill just 11 days after the attack.
The lucky hijackers The Very Lucky Hijackers Statistically speaking, the probability of the alleged perpetrators enjoying such a run of luck is vanishingly small. The probability that a mission would succeed can be calculated by estimating the probabilities of achieving each individual task required to fulfill the mission, and then multiplying those probabilities together. (This method of computing probabilities assumes that the individual events are causally independent. Since the success of each task was not strictly independent, the following computation is not statistically rigorous, but is provided only to illustrate a point.) The following table lists estimates of probabilities for each of several tasks critical to the success of the mission. In all cases we chose much higher probabilities than the facts would warrant, in order to give the official story the benefit of the doubt. task probability hijacking Flight 11 1/2 hijacking Flight 175 1/3 hijacking Flight 77 1/4 hijacking Flight 93 1/4 evasion of intercepts by Flight 11 1/2 evasion of intercepts by Flight 175 1/3 evasion of intercepts by Flight 77 1/8 evasion of intercepts by Flight 93 1/8 hitting the North Tower 1/2 hitting the South Tower 1/2 hitting the Pentagon 1/4 Assuming these individual probabilities, the aggregate probability for success in the attack would be: 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/4 * 1/4 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/8 * 1/8 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/4 = 1/589824 This computation ignores the many other improbable events that worked in favor of the attackers, such as the unprecedented (alleged) crumbling of the steel-framed skyscrapers of the World Trade Center.
He is a moron, but that fact does not automatically preclude him from being patriotic. It was his unwavering belief that his policies were in the best interest of the United States that showed his patriotism. Unfortunately his stupidity prevented him from realizing the failure of those policies. His blind belief in his policies created the likes of you. The truther movement has nothing to do with reality and is just an excuse for a fringe element of our society to attempt to defame and criticize the Bush Administration that they hated so much. The sad part is that hate has blinded all of you from the fact that the real enemy is preparing their next terrorist attack. I said this before and I will say it again. Perhaps you will be a personal victim of the next terrorist attack. Then, as you prepare for your trip to paradise, will you reflect on the possibility that your radical actions as a truther helped make the terrorist attack possible. From what you have shown, you will even at that dire moment, find a way to blame the United States government. Arrogant. Yes I am arrogant. That is a difference between us Tom. I can admit my flaws. You arrogance is astounding. You attempt to talk about subjects that you have little to no understand (physics, metallurgy, demolitions etc) and you present yourself as an expert on every subject. When confronted by someone with education in one of those areas, you still are not man enough to concede that you are talking out of your butt. Your solution is to slink off to another thread and attempt to sound like an expert there while fixing your errors that you posted in this thread. I like Bill Maher, he is funny. I don't know why you think that means I smoke pot, but whatever. However, his wardrobe is terrible. His suits are hideous. His ties are all too skinny. I would like to extend an invitation to you Tom. Every Wed-Friday night, you can find me playing $20-$40 limit hold-em in the high limit poker room at the Borgata in Atlantic City. I am easy to find, I will be the only player wearing a suit. Feel free to join the game anytime you want and talk about your little conspiracy theories. And if you don't know how to play poker and you would rather invite me outside to talk about your theories, I would be happy to accommodate that request as well.
I have no doubts that there will be another attack. People far above the likes of Bush/Cheney will see to that, I am sure. The only chance we all have of "not" having that happen is to educate ourselves and shine a light on these crimes that happen. The stupidity of the Bush presidency is only one piece of the puzzle. He was used by the elite in a much broader game of greed and lunacy, but you are correct...I do despise the former lead criminal. I don't try to "present" myself as anything other than someone trying (perhaps in vain) to get folks to LOOK, then judge for themselves. I know you try fairly hard at trying to generalize me but I don't want them to take my word for it (they certainly don't need to). I want them to look. Folks discovering for themselves is the best way to enlighten them, and hopefully piss them off enough to at least speak up when they find out for themselves. The main problem is...people do not look...for if they did take an honest look, the majority of folks wouldn't take very long to uncover a pile of stink that they wish they never knew of, hence, the other half of the problem. ANYBODY...with any reasonable degree of intelligence can uncover it if they just look. I know the general public can't be that stupid, but I do know they can be that greedy..with their own self-indulgence. You are a prime example of that. I'm hoping however that everyone is not like you. Sometimes the most educated people are the biggest idiots. I am who I am...reasonably intelligent, decent person that isn't afraid to call 'em as I see 'em. Whatever your motive is...it isn't genuine, so I would have to surmise that it would somehow hurt you, either financially or ethically to have the truth go mainstream as it is now threatening to do. That has to be the case because you cannot possibly be that stupid to NOT see the obvious. Oh and congratulations. You've successfully tied me up with responding to your agenda. I'll try to work on that in the future.
Well that was the best post you have submitted in this entire thread. Those are you actual thoughts without any propaganda. I don't understand why you would think I have some ulterior motive so I will clear it up. I promise my motive is genuine. You believe that the US government is either responsible or complicit in the events of 9/11. I believe that Islamic terrorists are responsible for 9/11 and that the leaders inside the US government exploited the events of that day to advance their own personal agendas. As reprehensible as that political opportunism is, it does not make them responsible for 9/11. IMO, failure to learn from historical mistakes is the easiest way to guarantee you will repeat those mistakes. If we don't maintain a focus on the real enemy, the terrorists, we open the door for the next major attack. The truther movement is based on hate and paranoia of the republican party, not the best interests or security of the United States. What you consider obvious mountains of evidence is viewed by the general public as coincidence and contextomy. When viewed through the truther glasses of hate, the events of that day appear damning and it becomes easy for you to rationalize the myth of governmental responsibility. The general public finds your position impossible to believe not because they are scared, but because they have been surrounded by government incompetence at every level for their entire lives. To believe that any faction of government could successfully execute the conspiracy plan that you propose is utterly preposterous to most people. Do you see the fundamental differences in our beliefs Tom? I understand you completely, but you seem confounded by why people don't automatically agree with you when you present the truther side. The reason is that you need the hatred to see what you see. You don't help your chances when you post 5+ consecutive posts which is viewed by most as an obvious attempt to avoid serious debate. And that brings us to the point that this debate has been over for quite some time as both of us have recognized that neither will change their mind. PS. Please note that I didn't insult you at anytime during this post out of respect your previous post which was an honest personal account of your opinion.
