Maybe We Can Agree on this?

Someone sent this to me, It runs along the lines where things went wrong. So in a nut shell this one is for you clembo.


http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

 

Really interesting from many points of view Elmo.

Thanks for thinking of me.

 

That is pretty funny. This appears to have been made by high school kids on too much Ritalin. Full of a bunch of made up stuff and make believe definitions. It should be on the Onion.

 

It does seem a bit cartoonish. And just a bit of right wing propaganda. I mean who was there to hear that Franklin quote? Did the woman run home and jot it down then run back to Ben and ask him to verify it? Was a reporter standing there as well? Whipping out his quill and ink well, quoting Benny as he strolled the streets? And as something of a womanizer, it is possible that Franklin said something outrageous to the woman hoping for some colonial candy. How could any person take seriously the Bill Clinton of the 18th century? I mean one could just as easily wrote that Franklin said, ''A democracy, Madam.''. And after watching this , this what? Show? It would mean that communism is a form of democracy. And in no way is fascsim a left wing concept. No way! Old ''Quiet'' Cal was in office when the FAA was formed. thats seems like a big government type thing. Doesnt it? Hoover worked up a commitee for the dam with his name. I dont think that commitee was something small. And if what is on that video is all true, then the trouble started in 1863 when Lincoln incorrectly stated that this form of government was by and of the people. You know, like a democracy. So lets call this government in which most of us are under a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC. Because thats what it is.

 

cool thread

 

Well so much for thinking we could agree on this. I enjoy the fact that Danr and CraigA will dissect anything and everything, slice it and dice it to put it under a microscope all the while disregarding actual history.

Democratic republic? If that is not an oxymoron I must need to look that definition up in the dictionary. Comparatively speaking if you were to build a graph showing growth over the past 20 years, it is my belief that the upper most line would be government.

It was our founding fathers intent that the government work for the citizens, not the other way around.I have a son also Craig, it saddens me that he was born in debt as his kids will be, due largely to the fact that some big companies with all their resources could no longer compete productively in our ever changing country, and instead of them thinking outside the box they found it far easier to get a hand out to pay unrealistic bonuses to archaic thinkers. Bottom line is their greed blinded them to reality, and when the bar was closed, they went in search of a sugar daddy to open the bar up again.

 

I didnt mention I had a son in this post. What actual history? You show me where in history that Franklin said, ''We've given you a republic.''. Give a fact that he said it. Not just some crap that its possible that he said it. It would have to be in his own hand, I'm guessing. Since the video clearly states he was approached by the woman on the street, so it would be just the two of them. I understand that some people here couldnt be bothered with logic and that they only believe what they are told. Those folks no longer wish to learn. And hey, I was born into the government's debt. I'm guessing you were too. I could be wrong, but I just dont know when this country was in the black. Do you? But gee I am sorry. I didnt mean for logic and sensibility to get in the way of legend.

 

Well so much for thinking we could agree on this. I enjoy the fact that Danr and CraigA will dissect anything and everything, slice it and dice it to put it under a microscope all the while disregarding actual history.

Craig follow the bouncing ball. Who cares if in fact Benjamin Franklin actually said this or not. When was the last time you read the constitution? Craig I am not gullible enough to believe you are unable to do this research for yourself. At times you display moments of clarity, put your big boy pants on and reach your own opinion.

As far as the being born into debt comment.Judging by your response, since we were born into debt. Is it okay for the next generation to be born into deeper debt? It amazes me that with all the advances we have had in technology and medicine, as the collective human race we are the same now as we were then.

 

Yea. You can be a wise ass all you want. But the fact is when one tries to make a point on how much we went wrong and the first volley is a statement even you agree is BS; how do you expect the rest to have any validity? And I didnt say it was ok for a nation to be in debt now or in the future. You say it like its the first time we are in debt. And its all some bad black guys fault. Thats what you are trying to say. And I dont have to do research on something you posted. especially when its hog wash. I would think that you must prove it to be fact, not I. You never heard of a democratic republic? I guess thats why you think the way you do. Get all huffy anf puffy when you get called on something. Maybe you should have some one cha....................forget it it. I wont stoop to your level.

 

First volley? So if I can provide a reputable link that proves Benjamin Franklin said this, you will buy the rest lock, stock and barrel? I do not think so, but I will be a sport and try my level best to find the illusive source. However before I do Craig, I would appreciate if you repeat after me.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Hey Craig I do not see the word democratic republic, was this a typo?

Craig my challenge to you is simple, in any of my threads or posts, where have I blamed this all or in part on one black man? Truth be told, I believe we are past the point of blame. I believe that it would be in everyone's best interest to collectively determine a path to repair and restore this great nation, to place her upright solid on her feet.Then and only then will we be home of the brave and land of the free. A place where once again the government is limited in it's power, working for the people. A place where our children are no longer born indentured , without fear of their children being born indentured. A place where our citizens make up the strength of this great nation.

Craig in response to you not stooping to my level. I can only believe you are standing on your head.

 

Go chase yourself, ya pompous windbag. I cant believe a grown man is living in fear of his country. Keep spewing out those platitudes. Thatll fix everything. And for your information, the original pledge of alligence didnt have the word god in it. So maybe it was a typo.

 

That is all you have? So much for healthy debate. Do you have a link for the original Pledge of Allegiance?

I do not get where you were led to believe I live in fear of my country, but since you seem to want to put words in my mouth, could you finish this without me? Let me know how it ends, and oh yeah do yourself a favor, pick up a few classes at the community college. Then return and we will debate it like gentlemen.

 

You mean like big boy pants? That kind of gentlemanly debate? ''A place where our children are no longer born indentured'' sounds like a statement of fear. Thats what you wrote. If you never claimed that the ills of this countrys present situation was the fault of this president, then I apologize for that. And there is no debate here at all. You posted some BS to suit yourself. I called you on it, and you got all bent out of shape. Oh I cannot believe you are unable to find evidence on the internet that the Pledge at first did not include the word god. Or ask one of your pals in this forum. Or google 'the original pledge of alligence'. It was changed in the early 1950's I think. Oh the ''who cares if Benjamin Franklin actually said this or not'' was great. I didnt go to as an elite school as you. When we debated, our dimwitted teachers wouldnt allow us to use the 'it doesnt have to be true' clause.

 

I think you are right that it was added in the 50ies...same as In God We Trust to coins. All during that long ago, forgotten time when everyone was afraid of the Godless Communists....oh wait.

 

Statement: It is my belief that the founding fathers while framing the constitution, and the foundation of our great country, believed that the only way to have truly free citizens, was to have "moderate government, with limited powers."

I am sure that most of us here are familiar with the political spectrum that they taught us in school. Where communists were on the far left, fascists on the far right, and the United States was in the center.

My interpretation of this presentation was they wished to simplify the archaic political spectrum and present it in a fashion, so that we could collectively refocus our attention on what our founding fathers had intended for us.

So with that said, they simply folded the old spectrum in half. They had to account for anarchy, to include all forms of government, so that became the zero in this representation.By simplifying the political spectrum they were able to show the measurable difference between the democratic government, and a republic.

Also I believe this presentation clearly showed the dangers, of walking that fine line ( or in Craig's words democratic republic) as these two political systems are contradicting.

 

As to the original Pledge of Allegiance here is the link for that. Some really interesting reading.


http://oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledge.htm

 

Well there it is. No god in it, huh? And here is something else. Bellamy was a socialist.

 

Nope Craig and no democratic republic. I saw what the author of the Allegiance was and I still provided the link. JIC you thought I would only use references that favored my point of view.

Again though I laid the meat and potato's on the table and you chose to ignore it. So Craig why on earth should I try and prevent you from chasing your tail?

 

Elmosworld , an interesting thought provoking piece. Not far off in either direction , only in personal judgement would it be challenged.

Pep

 

I never said the pledge had ''democratic republic'' in it. Why do you insist in reading things that arent there? And would there be any other way to show a link of the author without the link mentioning that he was a socialist? Listen just one time. Since the u s constitution was ratified, this country has been a democratic republic. Where all the people vote for a represenitive to make laws. Not a republic like Acient Rome, where only the rich and nobles voted. See the difference? Everyone one gets to vote. Not just some. for you to have the..... to say that this isnt what the founding fathers had in mind is ludicrous. But probably true. My guess is that they didnt want dirt farmers or blacksmiths to have the right to vote. Only thier business partners and land owners. People more or less the same as them. But then came the admendments, and it screwed everything up.