I Say, Let Any Right-Winger Opt Out of the Affordable Care Act

As I've said countless times, if the entity gestating inside the woman is viable outside the womb, then it must be covered under the Constitutional right to life.

I don't have a dog in the hunt in many debates. For instance, no one in my immediate family has ever been the victim of a homicide, but that doesn't mean I can't or don't have a position on the issue of homicide. Sometimes, homicide is justifiable while other times it isn't. As a member of society, the issue of homicide concerns me and can (but hopefully never will) affect me. However, you've stated the position that it's none of your business whether or not the woman has or does not have an abortion. You've clearly stated the decision is hers and hers alone which ends your discussion on the issue. What else is there to discuss? It's none of your business. Period.

 

I'm still trying to work out these issues. I don't know how we establish some sort of fetal development-based rights gradient that is going to work for everyone, especially those who have decided that abortion at any stage is murder. In the absence of any agreement on this I think we need to give the benefit of right and law to the functioning, living, already born, human(s) involved. That's not to say we shouldn't keep working on reaching a consensus. But I'm thinking it's like religion. The only way we're ever going to get along is to keep it personal.

As an aside, I have noticed that abortion in the abstract and abortion as a here-and-now issue that's affecting one personally tend to be viewed in different ways. If the issue was cut-and-dried for one before, it tends not to be so much when one actually has to weigh it in terms of real world consequences that involve a potential baby, one's health, one's partner and one's family. I think that the Right too often pushes the view that women who have abortions simply don't care. They also seem to ignore the fact that while a woman may support abortion rights in general, she herself might well decide not to avail herself of those rights.

 

Except that's not the discussion. You favor limiting that right in ways that I don't. THAT's the discussion.

 

I'm in favor of some limitations, of course. Do you favor NO limitations?

 

How refreshing it is to see an entire discussion without swearing and demeaning each other, save for the interruption by this idiot;

 

It doesn't have to work for everyone...it only has to work for the Mother, the Child, the Family, and the Physician. There are choices a woman makes before becoming pregnant and (under normal circumstances) should be responsible for the consequences of those choices.

However, mistakes happen and that's why both the health and "well-being" of the Mother should be considered when approving the termination of life...in Stage #1.

Once the baby and is capable of independent life (Stage #2), termination of the baby's life should only be permitted in the event of imminent peril to the Mother's life.

Ultimately, it's up to the Physician performing the procedure to determine each stage and the correct course of action. Of course, those decisions should be subject to judicial review and oversight to ensure the Human Rights of the baby are not capriciously violated...as they are currently.

 

Rather than your parents just decided to call you Dick

Uncalled for comments Please refrain from doing so again

 

...Next?

 

Does a paranoid schizophrenic prostitute have the right to choose? At the time of my birth the answer was no, therefore I exist. According to the religious right I am an abomination, according to the progressive left, I'm a social problem with an easy fix. I have a million dollar education in the school of life that no one in their right mind would pay a nickel for, so I do have a different prospective than you. Do I have the right to exist? I was born so therefore I can exist falls a bit short. It's like buying a condo in an existentialist ghetto. Do I have the right to exist, I ask myself that on a daily basis, the answer is and should be clear.

Mommy raised me to be a sociopath, I got passed around a lot, dumped in the park, and delivered to the care of some hard core assholes. Me, being a stubborn little brat, it didn't take. Then one day, a United States Marine and his wife took on 3 kids that weren't theirs, and they did it on a sergeants salary and my life became a lot better. Sorry Yak, but your video of the little girl set me off, that was me only I lived through it.

Are there unfit mothers, you better believe it. Do their little problems require offing me and my ilk. Think again. Pregnancy is less than 9 months worth of inconvenience and medical care, me, I last a life time.

 

Excellent, c jay! Thanks for sharing that with us. You ask the question, "Do I have the right to exist?" You and I both know the answer to that question. The more philosophical question is whether a human being is required to go through the birthing process in order to have a "right to exist" and, therefore as a human being, be covered under the Constitutional guarantee to the right to life. My opinion is that the baby is a human being before it is birthed and while it's still in the mother's womb.

I'm happy you were given the opportunity to live instead of being aborted.

 

Just so I understand, when you say that it "has to work" for the physician, what does that mean exactly? In my view, the physician is there in this situation to provide medical-related information, advice, and care, not to inject his personal religious or moral views into the mix or provide "moral" guidance unless asked to. If the doctor is in a situation in which he is uncomfortable providing a full list of lawful and medically viable options he should refer to patient to another doctor.

What does "independent life" mean in practical terms? In practical, everyday terms, what would be the criteria used in determining whether or not a fetus was capable of independent life?

You seem to take it as a given that fetuses, at least beyond a certain point in their development, have Human Rights. Or have become in other words, fully human. You go beyond special treatment or consideration and simply grant them full humanhood prior to birth. Does this mean that their rights are co-equal with those of the mother? I don't know if I agree with that or not. What's the reasoning behind it?

 

For purposes of discussion with you, yes. I'm for unrestricted access to abortion period, full stop, end of story. Black or white, just how you like it. Oh, I also think that coverage for it should be contained in all insurance plans private and public. Lets see...
have I missed anything? Oh yeah, if the woman is a Roman Catholic and became pregnant because in accordance with the teachings of the Church she was not using artificial birth control the diocese in which she resides should have to pay half the cost of the procedure.

 

I apologize for this initial image...the video is only an interview.

 

OK, so you don't want to have an honest discussion. What else is new?

 

Don't apologize for the initial image, yakpoo. Let the liberals see the consequences of their pro-abortion stance.

 

First of all, I think if doctors were to stop playing god, they would have to find another line of work. Medicine usually involves an attempt to alter or reverse a condition that nature (or god) has visited on you in one way or another, or to make an "improvement" in your physical being that nature never budgeted for. The only way to prevent doctors from playing god would be for them to rely solely on the same tools that priests have available to them when it comes to medical issues and let God do his job.

Survive how? Without medical assistance or other artificial means, but only with the care that a normal mother is able to provide? I'm not sure how realistic it would be to expect that of a fetus removed from the womb after at five or six months. God figured nine months was about right. So it sounds to me like under this scenario whether a fetus is human or not would be determined by the state of medical knowledge and technology at any given time. Or what was available. Or a doctor's assessment thereof. Which is one way to assess it I guess. Don't get me wrong.

I haven't watched the video yet, but I will. I'll say up front though that Obama this, Obama that doesn't move me one way or the other. He's been blamed for just about everything it's possible to blame him for plus a thousand other things as well. The Obama that so many on the Right have created for themselves goes so far beyond even caricature that I don't even pay any attention to it or them anymore when it comes to the sins of Obama. My own list is grounded in practical reality and I think extensive enough.

Anyway, thank you for getting back to me. I'm enjoying this exchange. Again, I promise to watch the vid

 

It has nothing to do with wanting or not wanting. I simply learned a long time ago that having an honest discussion with you is impossible and trying to do so is a waste of time. There are other people here who will talk to you.

 

In the context of the Physician's Hippocratic Oath, "I must not play at God" is a reference to abortion and euthanasia, two prohibitions that were clearly defined in earlier versions of the oath.

Original Version:

Btw, the video IS an "Obama this and Obama that" video, but that's not why I posted it. I have a Sister and two (2) Cousins that are registered nurses (RNs). My Cousins practice in the State of Michigan, where the nurse in the video is from.

They tell me similar stories of babies that are delivered and left to die a slow death; some taking more than a day to die. I think both Liberals and Conservatives alike find this practice unconscionable. That's the type of "abortion" I'm talking about.

If a woman can't make the abortive decision before a baby develops to a viable state, they should carry the baby to term and let one of the thousands of adoptive families give the baby a loving home. That preserves a Mother's "choice" while respecting the human rights of the developed, viable baby.

It may not be the way a Conservative would choose to live their life, but I agree with you, it's not up to them. At the same time, I don't think Planned Parenthood should treat a baby the same way you would treat a wart. Women should have access to all options and points of view...and the freedom to make an informed and timely choice.

 

Though not on topic, (right wingers opt out..) I would like to say that I am glad abortion has not been so readily available and acceptable in years gone by as it is now. I will fly to California at the end of the week to meet my very own sister for the first time, whom I never knew existed until this summer. She is sixty! And I am 55 (omg..). My mother got pregnant at 15 and was sent away in disgrace to have that baby. A closed adoption.. My mom died at twenty.

Regarding abortion specifically, I am against it. If a choice must be made, life of mother or baby, I'd pick mother. But I do believe everyone who feels compelled to make a choice must be allowed to make their own choice. We each will stand alone when we meet our maker and explain all of our life choices. And, life begins at conception. That is my view. No one here will change that.

 

yakpoo, I think that we are about as close as wer're going to get on this issue, which is pretty close - much more so than I expected. I'm glad that some mutual understanding and at least partial meeting of the minds is possible around here. I had pretty much written that sort of thing off.

I watched the video. Juxtapose that with the stories of babies who are born crack-addicted, and brain damaged. When it comes to adoption, kids like this are not in huge demand, especially if they're not white.

There are those who once born live their often very short lives hungry, tortiured, or simply neglected. And of course there are those who are in effect "aborted post birth" by being left to die in a public washroom or a dumpster. Not much different from what the video describes.

Don't know where I'm going with this, except to say that if we're going to protect fetuses, if after a certain point in fetal development the state is going to force a woman to carry a fetus to term, then we and the state need be there for the resulting children and their families if/when they need our help.