Do you think that Turkey should be allowed to join the European Union even if they never admitted to commiting genocide on the Christians that once lived in large numbers in Turkey and turkish controlled land, even if they do not stop the torturing and murdering of innocent Kurds, even if they are still in Cyprus after attacking that republic in 1974 and taking over half of it with military force and ethnic cleansing? http://www.kypros.org/Occupied_Cyprus/cyprus1974/turkish_invasion.htm http://www.cyprusisland.com/01_Information/cyprusproblem.htm Can this be a nation that can be trusted by the Europeans or is this a nation that like once before will try over time to take over Europe? After all they all ready have a large population living thru out Europe.
Turkey is part of Asia, it just happens to still be holding on to a relic of it's islamic inspired invasion foray into Europe. You can whitewash them all you want, but the good moslems of Turkey finance terrorism, and kidnap and rape and force into prostitution thousands of Russian and Ukrainian girls and women and the government turns a blind eye. Remember the driving religion in this country, their history, and then ask yourself, do they belong in Europe?:stooge:
Simple answer is yes they are after all members of Nato and would help to provide a Bulwark agains the spread of fundamentalism. If we turn them down again and again then the Mullahs will begin to take over, we need to show them the benifits of been westernised. Please do not forget that Turks are not Arabs. I personaly have allways found them to be a warm and freindly people. De Orc :kewl:
Turkey should never be allowed to join the European Union on the following grounds; It is a Middle Eastern country that has only a very tiny area located in Europe. Has a terrible human rights record against ethnic & religious minorities,& gaols those who criticise Turkey's republican institutions (courts,army,legislature,etc.). It is still illegally occupying the northern part of Cyprus,a British Commonwealth country,& alienating the native Cypriots (both Greek Cypriots & Turkish Cypriots) through implimenting apartheid policies similar to that practised by the Republic of Ireland. Corruption is a rampant problem in Turkey. Aidan.
Turkey. Moen,not that sort of turkey.Andy is referring to the Middle Eastern country,whose currency is called the Lira. Aidan.
Ooooooooooh! Now I get it. P.S. Watch out for El Cid. He might be headed your way to give you a kick in the bum.
Most of are aware of the bloody history there just as we are aware of the bloody history of Germany (who is a member of the EU).
The decision by western Europeans as to whether Turkey shall be allowed to join the European Union has almost nothing to do with Turkish human rights or morality. Western Europeans, other than the British, make their decisions solely on the basis of economics and political power. Western Europe is a secular region. They don't make decisions on the basis of what is right or wrong. IMHO, it boils down to show me the money comrad. There must be financial reasons why western Europe does not want the Turks in their club.
Strangly enough us Brits actualy do want Turkey to be a member :thumb: Financialy Turkey is stronger than most of the countries asking for membership LOL If we want to talk about crime then lets talk about Bulgaria, Albania etc, if we want to talk corruption lets look at all the eastern Block countries asking to join and the same cane be said about Human rights violations, on which Turkey has actualy improved its record. Again I say thought the bigest plus for Turkey is they are a member of NATO & has proven it's loyalty many times over so I ask 'do you realy want to see them pushed into the arms of the fanatics'? Turkey is a very western looking country but if we keep shunning it it will go the other way and I for one would rather not have a fundamentalist state that close. De Orc
Tell that to George Bush and Tony Blair, back when the USA and Britain invaded Iraq, note that Turkey closed it's land and airspace to any conflict with Iraq, because of the Kurdish issue.
And that means what exactly the war in Iraq is not a NATO war or did you perhaps think it was? Look how many countries did not follow Bush & Blair into this LOL so saying Turkey shoukd not join the EU when it followed the example of most of the member states is not realy on is it LOL De Orc
I respect your viewpoints De Orc, especially since you have a beach house in Brazil, but I would not think of the Turks as being good NATO members and I think the Greeks and the Republic of Crypus would agree. Good member states would not attack other member states unless they do not view the membership seriously other then "what can I get out of it" and "What can I get away with". An example of the NATO Turkish Army in action as reported by the European Commission of Human Rights: "The goal was the ethnic-cleansing, 17 years before the term was even coined, of the occupied northern part of the island. When one reads the report, adopted on July 10, 1976, after months of investigation by the European Commission of Human Rights, one understands why thousands of Greek Cypriots fled their homes at the approach of the Turkish army. The Commission accepted that there were "very strong indications" of killings "committed on a substantial scale." The atrocities of the Turkish army included wholesale and repeated rapes of women of all ages, systematic torture, savage and humiliating treatment of hundreds of people, including children, women and pensioners during their detention by the Turkish forces, as well as looting and robbery on an extensive scale, by Turkish troops"
The Turkish decision to stop the 4th ID from attacking Saddam from the North really damaged the American war plan and allowed most of Saddam's Republican Guard troops to survive the war. Initially, I think Republican Guard divisions were poised to fight the Americans full-scale near Baghdad. After the early American and British military performances in south Iraq, I think Saddam changed his battle plan. He disbanded his Republican Guard units at the gates of Baghdad as the Americans closed the trap. The 4th ID was supposed to crush them in the North while the U.S. Marines and the 3rd ID came in from the South. The Turks forced the Americans to transport the 4th ID by ship, through the Suez Canal, and on to Basra from the south. The 4th ID, the msot powerful armored division on the planet, never made it to the big dance. I believe that much of the success of the current Iraqi insurgency is due in part to the vast numbers of "retired" Republican Guard troops that survived the second war. Turkey screwed up the Coalition battle plan, and their lack of cooperation was not anticipated by the United States. It was a grave disappointment to the American military. However, the Turks were forced to "show their cards", their real political position. IMHO, the Turks "sealed the deal" by rejecting the United States in Iraq. I believe that because of that betrayal, there will indeed be an Iraqi Kurdistan someday. If push comes to shove, the USA will ultimately back the Iraqi Kurds in their quest for a Kurdish homeland because of Turkey's decision to rebuff the USA in Iraq. You buys your ticket, you takes your chances.
And France got the brunt of the vocal expletives from the USA government and press, and they had no where near the effect on the outcome of the conflict that Turkey doing the above did. That is the thanks the USA gets for planting billions of dollars worth of military equiptment in Turkey, propping repeated military governments, tolerating endless human rights abuses etc etc etc, oh and by the way, if it had not been for your country propping these *******'s up, we would be fluttering the hammer and sickle flag on the Bosporus and through it. Don't forget it.
So what you are saying is it was in Americas interest to prop them up LOL the Greeks were not lilly white in Cyprus either guy's also we and Spain came very close to blows over Gib so these things happen By the way read this 39th Air Base Group was activated, effective July 16, 2003. August 19, 2003, the first rotation of deployed KC-135 Stratotankers and Airmen arrived at Incirlik to support Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. January 6, 2004, more than 300 soldiers of what would become thousands transited through Incirlik as the first stop back to their home post, after spending almost a year in Iraq. Incirlik was part of what was described as the largest troop movement in U.S. history. Incirlik provided soldiers with a cot, warm location, entertainment and food for a few hours outside of a hostile war zone. March 12, 2004, the 39th Air Base Group deactivated, and the 39th Air Base Wing activated to provide the best mix of required support and, as new mission requirements emerge, to shoulder the burden and better contribute in the global war on terrorism. June 1, 2005, Incirlik activated one of the Air Force’s largest C-17 Globemaster cargo hub operations in support of OEF and OIF. Hub operations deliver much-needed supplies such as add-on armor, tires, engines and more to U.S. Forces in theater via the 385th Air Expeditionary Group. October 18, 2005, Incirlik served as an air-bridge for the Pakistan Earthquake Relief Effort. Seven countries participated in the NATO humanitarian operation. 100 trucks offloaded and 130 airlift mission conducted delivering 1,647 tons using 996 pallets. Any guesses where this air base is LOL De Orc :hug:
I don't have any data to deny that assertion. It sounds about right. I also think that Turkey has shifted away from being a solid secular republic. I think they are closer to radical Islam than most Americans realize.
Gibraltar. Steve,Spain's dispute with Great Britain over Gibraltar is not the same as Turkey's dispute with Cyprus.I'll tell you why. Firstly,Spain has never tried to station troops in Gibraltar,whereas,Turkey is still illegally occupying Cyprus. Spain's claim to Gibraltar is illegal,as is the Argies' claim to the Falkland Islands.Turkey's occupation of Cyprus is still illegal,as is its territorial claim to Cyprus. Secondly,both Gibraltar & Cyprus are part of the British Commonwealth,despite the different constitutional statuses of the 2 entities. Thirdly,both Gibraltar & Cyprus have a common name for their currencies - the Pound.Yes,Cyprus uses the good old-fashioned Quid sign. Aidan.
Aiden it matters not what the status of Gib is or how different to Cyprus it is, what I was saying was that we and Spain came very close to a war over the place. and yet we are both members of Nato, I am not arguing the ethics of the case just saying that been a member of Nato does not preclude you from having a argument with another member. Yes Turkey's claim to Cyprus is Illigal but by the same token so was the Greek claim and the attempt at union, dont forget that In July 1974 the then ruling Junta of Greece organised a coup d' etat against President Makarios, who was following a policy of an independent and non-aligned Cyprus in which Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots would agree upon new constitutional arrangements. It was then that Turkey invaded and one other point the island itself was part of the Ottoman Empire from 1571 till we (Brits) took it in 1914. De Orc :thumb:
Spain and the UK traded barbs over Gibraltar, and talked of furthering the conflict, and Spain blockaded Gibraltar's land approaches. But they never fired at each other etc. And Spain was not then a member of NATO, it didn't join until the early 1980's, by which time the row over Gibraltar had largely passed. There were issues internally which prevented Spain from joining NATO, ie Franco's government being a dictatorship etc. When Franco died and Juan Carlos took the reigns of the Govt, then Spain became much more eligible for NATO membership.
