What millennials don’t know about the other side of socialism

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JohnHamilton, Oct 4, 2019.

  1. JohnHamilton
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    JohnHamilton Active Member

    Our resident Trump hater has told us that one needs only one word to describe capitalism, GREED. Many millennials claim that they are socialists, and yet what does the system really mean to them?

    What "socialism” means to millennials is that they think they are going to get their student loans forgiven. They also think that they are going to get cheap or free housing. They also figure that getting a job will be a lot easier because the government will be hiring everybody, even if you have a degree that has given you few marketable skills. Beyond that is the vague notion that “socialism” will fix the bigotry and unfairness in the world, which they have been taught is “prevalent” with capitalism.

    What they don’t get is the other side of the argument. They are not aware of the lack of choices that come with socialism. They are not aware of the extensive problems that government run economies face with getting the right amount of goods in the right place at the right time to produce the products that consumers demand. They don’t consider the fact that you are unhappy with the local government run store, that the next government run store might be just as bad or worse.

    They don’t consider that under capitalism, if one company is not doing the job, you can go to another one. And if that company produces a lousy product, the market will eventually put it out of business so that it is no longer wasting resources with its inferior service.

    They don’t consider the fact that the people who run the government and administer its programs are not angels. Most people do look out for their own interests, and some people will do dishonest things to get more. Under socialism, the corrupt government official is only accountable to the internal politics of the people above him. If he keeps them happy, or if they share the results of corruption with him, it does not matter that the people he or she is supposed to serve get the short end.

    Socialism sounds like utopia when you present only one side. The trouble that system has serious flaws that exceed those of capitalism, in my opinion. There are problems with satisfying markets without the price rationing function, and the checks on inefficiency and corruption are too weak. Beyond that the amount of data that is required to run a socialist economy from the top down are overwhelming. Even in the age of computers, the data gathering, processing and implementation present huge problems.
     
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  2. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Wonder who pays for the free health care and free educations. Do the doctors and teachers donate their time? I figure probably not..... Anyone that believes government can do a better job than the free market just needs to go to their local highway department and stand in line a few hours. Or a visit to the social security office. True bastions of efficiency....... And that in itself is the problem with socialized anything. The checks and balances that a free market imposes are lost. Thus the motivation to excel is non-existent. And sooner or later, well the money runs out. Can't feed the beast forever unless somebody is working to make the food to feed it. But we don't teach young people these days that they have to work to get anywhere. The mindset is in place and the cycle cannot sustain itself. I do believe that in my lifetime we will see this socialist mindset take hold. It certainly has a foothold. The "give me's" will outnumber the "providers" and calamity will ensue. It is scary, but that's the direction we are headed. Even now, I pay more in quarterly taxes than I bring home to my family. And that won't be half enough when I have to support free healthcare and education too. Those of us supporting this fatted calf will stop and join in the wonderful free lifestyle promised for all!
     
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  3. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Sound familiar?

     
  4. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Modern History Sourcebook:
    Benito Mussolini:
    What is Fascism, 1932
    Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) over the course of his lifetime went from Socialism - he was editor of Avanti, a socialist newspaper - to the leadership of a new political movement called "fascism" [after "fasces", the symbol of bound sticks used a totem of power in ancient Rome].

    Mussolini came to power after the "March on Rome" in 1922, and was appointed Prime Minister by King Victor Emmanuel.

    In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism.

    Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....

    ...The Fascist accepts life and loves it, knowing nothing of and despising suicide: he rather conceives of life as duty and struggle and conquest, but above all for others -- those who are at hand and those who are far distant, contemporaries, and those who will come after...

    ...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production.... Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied - the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society....

    After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage....

    ...Fascism denies, in democracy, the absur[d] conventional untruth of political equality dressed out in the garb of collective irresponsibility, and the myth of "happiness" and indefinite progress....

    ...iven that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority...a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State....

    The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....

    ...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone....

    ...For Fascism, the growth of empire, that is to say the expansion of the nation, is an essential manifestation of vitality, and its opposite a sign of decadence. Peoples which are rising, or rising again after a period of decadence, are always imperialist; and renunciation is a sign of decay and of death. Fascism is the doctrine best adapted to represent the tendencies and the aspirations of a people, like the people of Italy, who are rising again after many centuries of abasement and foreign servitude. But empire demands discipline, the coordination of all forces and a deeply felt sense of duty and sacrifice: this fact explains many aspects of the practical working of the regime, the character of many forces in the State, and the necessarily severe measures which must be taken against those who would oppose this spontaneous and inevitable movement of Italy in the twentieth century, and would oppose it by recalling the outworn ideology of the nineteenth century - repudiated wheresoever there has been the courage to undertake great experiments of social and political transformation; for never before has the nation stood more in need of authority, of direction and order. If every age has its own characteristic doctrine, there are a thousand signs which point to Fascism as the characteristic doctrine of our time. For if a doctrine must be a living thing, this is proved by the fact that Fascism has created a living faith; and that this faith is very powerful in the minds of men is demonstrated by those who have suffered and died for it.

    This text is part of the Internet Modern History Sourcebook. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts for introductory level classes in modern European and World history.
     
  5. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to recall that after all his bluster, Mussolini died a coward...... And all this sidesteps one of the most basic human needs. To better ones condition. The capitalist system is the perfect vehicle for that. Heck, I am living proof that a failed man can pick himself up and become something meaningful.
     
  6. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Mussolini shot two days before Hitler died and was hung in the public square. He is the fat guy second from the end. Good riddance you piece of crap.
    Mussolini_e_Petacci_a_Piazzale_Loreto,_1945.jpg

    The Capitalist system is also the only system that Fascism can arise from. It is "...the marriage of the Corporation and the State..." In Socialism, the state owns the means of production exclusively. That never has worked out because innovation is not rewarded. Fascism on the other hand, absolutely must expand and grow it's borders. Expansionism defines Fascism. That is why the Fascists first attack their neighbors.

    The freedom to better one's self is not exclusive to the United States, although you wouldn't know it by the rhetoric you hear in this country. It is also not exclusive to Capitalist societies. Most of our allies are social democracies. Social democracy is a political, social and economic philosophy that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist mixed economy. What Fascists hate is the idea of Social Justice.

    If you listen to radical right-wingers, everyone that doesn't believe everything they believe is a Socialist commie. Capitalism cares nothing for social justice, it only cares about money. Money is the root of all happiness. Greed is good. I got mine, screw you. All prevalent attitudes by radical right-wingers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2019
  7. JohnHamilton
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    JohnHamilton Active Member

    I write a piece about the practical about the problems that socialist governments and economic problems that socialist planners face. Our local communist shows up with two canned responses that he didn’t write. Pathetic.

    A history professor I had in college made the comment that two parties who have the smallest disagreements about political matters often despise one another the most. Perhaps that’s why Joe Nation hates the fascists and Nazis so much. Their methods and goals are not much different from those of the communists. They are both totalitarian movements whose goals are to restrict civil rights and property rights.
     
  8. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    This comment has stuck with me all day and I’m not real sure how I am going to respond, so I’ll just see if I can get to where my thoughts are as I go.

    One of my odd quirks is that I am a very anal record keeper in my office. I know to the letter that my 32% (more this fiscal year) of my companies earnings are in effect “given away”. My CPA routinely rides me about this. Fact is, if I am going to succeed then those around me will succeed as well. And even that doesn’t begin to touch the personal benevolent ways I choose to use my money..... Yes, when the opportunity is there we will earn money on a deal. But I would bet my bottom dollar that any architect, designer or builder in a three state area would tell you that me and my company have been anything short of the most honorable business they have ever worked with. I am quite proud of that.

    Capitalism at its core is simply my ability to provide you a product or service better than the next guy. If I cannot then I do not earn your business.

    Greed in measure is in fact good. It gives me the motivation to work ten hours rather than eight. It offers any man motivation to succeed. Granted, I do know folks that have been consumed with greed and consequently self-destructed. It can be more dangerous than narcotics. But measurable greed is the cornerstone of many profitable organizations that supply needed jobs.

    Joe, the greed you allude to is what you see on the TV drama news. They are much more colorful to read about. The vast majority of those providing jobs out there are much more like me. I don’t cheat on my contracts or short pay my vendors or pay a meager wage. Oh sure, I could do those things and be really comfortable for a year or two. But I sure wouldn’t be able to lie my head down at night to sleep. It’s more like, “I got mine, now I can help you.”
     
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  9. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Bravo! I think that you have not only hit the nail on the head but have proven something I have been saying for years. Simply stated, it isn't Capitalism or the wealthy that make this country what it is, it is the hard working honest people that Americans have always been that make this country great. In other words, the workers and builders.

    I would think that you would despise someone like Donald Trump that repeated screwed small business owners just like you because he was rich enough to do so. There are countless stories about painting contractors, remodelers, and other small business owners Trump refused to pay because he knew that he could bleed them dry in court and made them settle for pennies on the dollar for honest work they provided at his casinos and resorts. He basically got rich screwing the little guy.

    Donald Trump is that greed you see in TV dramas except on steroids. Read this article if you have any doubts: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...donald-trump-lawsuits-legal-battles/84995854/ 3,500 lawsuits over 3 decades is not normal for any business since no one would do business with you or lend you money. And that is where he found himself by the time he ran for president.

    Let me ask you, if someone like Donald Trump came to your business with his record, would you take the work knowing that there was a very good chance that he would refuse to pay your invoice after you completed the job? I'm sure that you would have more sense than to get involved with a guy with his record.

    If you googled a perspective client and found stuff like this: https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-business-plan-left-a-trail-of-unpaid-bills-1465504454 what would you do? Google "Trump lawsuits breach of contract" and you will see endless stories of him screwing over people just like you. I will never respect the type of greed Trump represents because I know what it does to honest people just trying to make an honest living. The part of Capitalism I can't stand is when we honor people like Trump who distort Capitalism into the ugliest system imaginable.
     
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  10. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    I did read the stories in your links. And frankly no... If the opportunity arose and I did my diligence prior to striking a deal... I would not subject my business to accepting a contract with a firm that bore a negative history like that.

    I have long been of the opinion that Mr. Trump would do himself and our nation a big favor if he were to present himself in a more presidential manner. I fully concede that as a man, his style is not something I hold in high regard. And I will now add that his business acumen is not something I hold in high regard either.

    My initial foray into business was set in place by a man who is the epitome of greed. A man I had known for years. He saw something in me and took a 1.2 million dollar gamble on me at an 8% interest rate. A rate that is criminal now knowing what I know. I have no aspirations at all to be anything like him, but without his interest in me, I would still be living paycheck to paycheck. And I paid that debt in under five years.

    I have also said many times that a man is defined not by his efforts. Rather he is defined by his results. And again I have to point out. People are working. And even if this is a result of the previous administrations policies, it matters not. Our economy is based on confidence alone. And business as a whole is in favor or our current leader. And when the head is cut off... The body will die leaving Mister Average American again struggling to bring those groceries home.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
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  11. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I'm no economist but I have to believe that when you walk into Economics 101 on the first day of class, you don't hear the professor say, "The economy is based on confidence alone. Class dismissed." I just think that there might be a little bit more to it than that. :)

    The current economy indicators are all beginning to flash red as you can plainly read in just about any publican that seriously covers the economy. Does that mean that people are losing confidence? How do you reconcile the same president with what appears to be an economy headed for a downturn? By the way, employment is a lagging indicator meaning that you don't see the uptick in jobless rates until the recession dye is cast and you don't see an increase in employment until a couple of quarters into a recovery.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
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  12. JohnHamilton
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    JohnHamilton Active Member

    Confidence is not the most important aspect to a good economy, but it is an important factor. The best thing that FDR did during the Great Depression was to instill in the people a positive image. He was the leader who was with them and looking for solutions. His policies were too heavy handed with agencies, like the NRA. He made the mistake of increasing taxes “on the rich” which pulled investment capital out of the economy. But his statement in his first inaugural address, “What we have most to fear is fear itself,” struck the right chord.

    For the record, most economic depressions are started by excessive debt or “leverage.” What often happens is that business and individuals borrow too much and can’t pay it back. Foreclosures result; businesses fail; Workers are laid off: and large segments of the economy comes crashing down, in part, because of a lack of confidence.

    Banks made a lot of stupid mortgage loans in the 2000s. They bundled the bad loans in to “investment derivatives” and sold them to people who were eager for higher returns than the safer investments offered. When they went bad, which was inevitable, we had the great financial crisis, which ended the Bush Administration on a very sour note.

    When banks make dumb mortgage loans to people who don’t have the income or assets to pay them, the result is inevitable. Ditto for loans that are made when people put nothing or very little down. It’s too easy for them to walk. At the end of the foolishness, banks were even making loans where the borrowers were not paying any of the principle, only the interest. This was a recipe for failure, and that’s what we got.

    How do you prevent this? I wish I had the answer and so did some former presidents who got run out on an electoral rail because the economy went south. It’s hard to regulate prudent lending without stifling prudent borrowing and investment. That’s the policy question that both political parties have wrestled with for decades after the crash of 1929.
     
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  13. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    The solution is simple. Regulation.
     
  14. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    That one word is mortifying to a business owner.

    All this oversight and intrusion sounds so nice when they are rolled out. In the midst of Mr. Obama’s administration the new employment verification program called E-Verify was rolled out. Now I am a small business with a handful of employees. It quite literally ties a persons hands a minimum of four hours to enroll a new employee in E-Verify. For a small business of seven employees, that is three days lost to red tape. Then I had the lady that couldn’t be approved. She had married since her SSN was issued and her last name was now different. Sounds simple to correct, doesn’t it? She spent two and a half days at the SSN office and on my end it took an additional half day to get all the correct government boxes checked.

    No sir. Any government regulatory impositions placed on me are mind numbing losers of productive time. Regulation is the absolute worst four letter word to a businessman.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
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  15. JohnHamilton
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    JohnHamilton Active Member

    Some of these bureaucrats create red tape to justify their employment. They don’t care if they hurt the businesses which ends up hurting the economy. It’s all about growing government which results in more jobs for government employees. They are really no different from people who work in the private sector. Make the business or government larger, create more worker and supervisor positions. Vote Democrat, make the government bigger. That’s why the government employee unions are in the tank for the Democrat Party.
     
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  16. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Trump's election year economy will be much worse than he promised, economists say
    By Anneken Tappe, CNN Business

    Updated 8:06 AM ET, Mon October 7, 2019

    The manufacturing sector contracted for the second straight month in September. One index measured the industry's monthly growth at its lowest since June 2009. The services sector, too, unexpectedly slowed. A mixed jobs report on Friday left investors wondering whether the Federal Reserve will step up again to stimulate growth later this month.
    When put in perspective, however, the economy is not in bad shape.
    For example, fewer jobs than expected were added in September, but America is near full employment. It makes sense that job growth is slowing: With the unemployment rate at 3.5%, its lowest since December 1969, there are not enough people available to fill open positions.
    The economy is really still "in a good place," Fed Chairman Jerome Powell said Friday. It certainly is. This is the longest expansion of the US economy on record, and it's still going — just at a slower pace.
    The Fed has raised interest rates twice so far this year to keep growth going. But expectations for monetary policy in the remainder of 2019, are all over the place. The NABE economists are split, with 40% anticipating another rate cut this year. Three-quarters of them expect a rate cut by the end of 2020.

    By comparison, market expectations call for a 78% chance of a quarter percentage point cut this month, and a nearly 90% chance for a decrease in December, according to the CME FedWatch Tool.
    But rate cut or not, the trade war remains a real risk to the economy.
    "The rise in protectionism, pervasive trade policy uncertainty, and slower global growth are considered key downside risks," said Gregory Daco, chief US economist at Oxford Economics and survey chair for NABE.
    The uncertainty the US-China trade war poses for overall growth and individual sectors like manufacturing, which rely on both global demand and materials from abroad, is tremendous.
    Financial markets have been getting slapped around by headlines all year, with stocks rallying at slightest signs of hope for a trade deal and then dropping with the next escalation. If the trade war were out of the way, the outlook for the economy could look very different.
     
  17. JohnHamilton
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    JohnHamilton Active Member

    Isn't nice of you to root for a recession, which would cause hardship and put some people out work, so that you can get your way politically.
     
  18. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    dan.jpg
     
  19. JohnHamilton
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    JohnHamilton Active Member

    I noticed that you canned responses continue. It's nice to have handlers who look out for you.
     
  20. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Canned? I was going for dismissive. o_O
     

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