The Grand Progressive Experiment

Discussion in 'Politics' started by toughcoins, Mar 21, 2020.

  1. toughcoins

    toughcoins Well-Known Member

    Joenation, FryDaddyJr, and other extreme liberals like them are unrealistic agitators, for whom practicality will always take a back seat to idealism.

    Their progressive ilk all want to "transform" the United States of America, lock, stock and barrel into their vision of a utopian nation in one fell swoop. Well, the scientific community works very differently than that.

    As with all good experiments, a small scale test is in order to prove a concept before implementation on a grand scale. I think we should put them all on their own big island where they can show us the errors of our ways. Guam might be an ideal location.

    There they can develop Utopia to their heart's delight . . . an independent, self-sustaining entity, with its own laws, resources, etc. If, after 100 years duration it turns out to be what we as a nation wish to adopt, well then we will have seen the results.

    That would give them the chance to convince us less clairvoyant conservatives to make a better informed, data-driven decision. I'm sure that, being the social scientists that they claim to be, they'd agree that to commit to such a vision without having seen the results first would be complete insanity.

    Unfortunately, I think they lack the patience for such an experiment.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
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  2. FryDaddyJr

    FryDaddyJr Member

    I'm not an extreme liberal. I wasn't even for Sanders because I think he's too far left.
    You can't label anyone left of Pat Buchanan as "extreme liberal"
     
  3. toughcoins

    toughcoins Well-Known Member

    Okay, maybe I went overboard with the adjective "extreme", as I haven't yet seen more than a few of your posts, but every one of them that I have seen would put you squarely under that tent.

    I don't think I called you a die hard Sanders adherent, so please don't be so defensive about that.

    I think there are literally at least a few billion people on the face of the Earth that I could justifiably call extremely liberal, when compared to Pat Buchanan. Your use of the English language is in need of a little refinement if you only want people to interpret your messages as intended.
     
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  4. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    We have already seen the experiments. It started with the Pilgrims when they tried the communal experiment, and it failed miserably. The colony almost died. They were forced to move to the private property model where people had to assume responsibility for themselves with trade between individuals within the community.

    Englishman Robert Owen had his commune with also failed, here in America. He never saw the light, but his sons did.

    Finally, we have the great and long-lasting experiments, the Soviet Union, Cuba, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, Nicaragua and the latest disaster, Venezuela. All of them failed, and the people those systems produced a living hell. Communist China has become a hybrid system which is why they have been able to survive and prosper.

    Of course, like all true socialist regimes, the people have few humans, but human rights are well down on the list of priorities in the socialist system. It’s the state that matters. The all-powerful state that will fix all of society’s wrongs. But those who study history know that is nothing but empty promises.
     
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  5. toughcoins

    toughcoins Well-Known Member


    You're absolutely right. But liberals don't learn from history . . . they repeat it.

    I'm just trying to get them to take their own private lessons, instead of mandating them on all of us.
     
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  6. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    These two are a historical reflection of what members of the Communist Party must do. They have to follow or at least mouth the party line. They can have no independent thoughts of their own.

    I have put the Frydaddy person on “ignore.” Life is difficult enough right now without getting worked up over the canned utterances of a fool.

    Having read the Joenation posts for many months, I can say that I have read very little about what he WANTS TO DO with respect to economic, domestic or foreign policy. All that I have learned that he hates Trump, #1, and a far distant second is that he wants to help people who are down.

    The second position presents a noble sentiment, how he’s going to do it, beyond hand-outs and vote buying, is very unclear. Instead of presenting his proposals, he goes on attack against Republicans, which nothing new for him. In the end he really has no solutions other than the one The Party feeds to him.
     
  7. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    This is what befuddles me as well. History is the great teacher and seems so easy to forget:
    • The Democratic Party was deeply rooted in segregation and racism for decades. Yet somehow they now try to paint that as a conservative problem. Not surprisingly, it is no longer a problem.
    • JFK, a very beloved democrat uttered the words that have defined most of my life, “Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask rather what you can do for your country “..... Yet the current incarnation of the Democratic Party is not the least bit motivated by what they can do for anyone. It’s rather, “What can the country give me?”...
    It disturbs me that the is no selflessness in the party that I can see at all. It’s the party of trophies for everyone. The fact that I have worked 12-14 hour days most of my professional life matters not. I have a larger bank account now so I am greedy and selfish. We used to teach children that you can work hard and accomplish anything. That message is as extinct as the dinosaurs. I don’t know what message we teach now. But I fear it is not a good one.
     
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  8. FryDaddyJr

    FryDaddyJr Member

    Do you know what "The Dixiecrat switch" and "The southern strategy" are?
     
  9. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Only because one of my states most ingrained leaders, Strom Thurmond was at the core of it.
     
  10. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    I have often said that these guys could move to California and make it as socialist utopia as they want. In the meantime, I could live in another state far away from their taxes and mismanagement. They can talk about “compassion for other human beings” while thousands of homeless people live in tents on the street without bathrooms. It’s hardly a ringing endorsement for the type of society they demand to be imposed upon us. Why don't you clean up your mess before you demand to impose it on others?

    Taking over California, New York, Illinois or Washington state is not good enough for them. They want to force me to live under their system.

    Joenation has repeatedly posted that he wants to take my wife’s pension. He thinks that’s funny, but I know that he is not really joking. That is precisely what he wants to do. He is angry at anyone who has done well in their life though hard work and perseverance. He hates us just like he hates Donald Trump because he has been successful.

    That’s what socialism is all about … hate, class envy and greed.
     
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  11. toughcoins

    toughcoins Well-Known Member

    Sorry, but I don't want any state to go socialist in this great nation. If a state wants socialism that badly, then it must successfully secede from the nation first . . . and good luck with that.
     
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  12. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    Here are a little reminders of the 1948 Thumond presidential campaign. That year, he and a group that were called "the Dixie-crats" walked out of the Democratic National Convention because they disagreed with Harry Truman's civil rights policies. They ran as a racist, southern off-shoot of the Democratic Party. They pull some electoral votes from "the solid South" for Truman, but he still managed to win.

    Dixiecrat Post Card.jpg Thurmond & Wright.jpg Strom Thurmond Card O.jpg Strom Thurmond Card R.jpg
     
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  13. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    The politicians in California would love to go to full blown socialism, but they know that if they did, the gravy train, that has made them rich and powerful, would be de-railed.

    Bernie Sanders is another example of total hypocrisy. He called on the drug companies to give away any corona virus vaccine they developed for free. That’s funny. When he made his wife the President of Burlington College, he saw to it that she got paid $200,000 a year. When she left, she got another 250,000 in severance pay despite the fact that she had severely mismanaged the institution. Why didn’t she work for free or perhaps at a salary that would just pay her living expenses?

    The answer is in George Orwell. Bernie and his wife “are more equal pigs” than the rest of us. Their “equality” calls for them to have three houses while the rest of us are supposed to live in sack cloths and give all we earn to the government for re-distribution.
     
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  14. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Are those part of your collection, John? You must have the most complete collection of political buttons and memorabilia in the country.
     
  15. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    No even close. A couple of the big ones have been sold over the past decade. David Frent (He had some 19th century, but he was big into the 20th century.) sold his stuff through Heritage, and John Ford probably had the most 19th century politcal tokens ever. I have a fair sized collection, but it's nothing compared to the best.

    One of the goals of many collectors is to get a jugate button, (the presidential and the vice presidential candidates pictured side by side. I have an example of everything except Cox and Roosevelt, 1920. I posted about that one a few weeks ago here. Yes, the "Roosevelt" was FDR who ran for vice president just before he was strickened by polio. FDR is the only man who ever ran on a losing ticket for vice president and came back to win the presidency. Cox - Roosevelt buttons can bring $30 to $50+ thousand if they don't have any problems.

    Believe it or not that is a 1948 Thurmond - Wright jugate button. There are less than 10 exmaples known to the hobby. I know of one auction where one was sold. It brought close to $10,000.

    Here is my best Cox - Ro0sevelt item. It is a window sticker that somehow survived.

    Cox & Roosevelt Decal Small.jpg
     
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  16. toughcoins

    toughcoins Well-Known Member

    Most may not know this, but not only do Bernie and his wife have multiple homes, they have lived high on the hog for many years. Throughout his career, Bernie has cleverly managed to direct campaign advertising funds from his contributors into his wife's pockets. He is a deceptive charlatan, no better than the bourgeoisie he complains about, but the youngsters have too short of an attention span to dig into this.

    https://nationalfile.com/bernie-campaign-funneled-millions-to-company-connected-to-bernies-wife/

    As long as he continues to campaign, he continues to get richer . . . it doesn't matter whether he wins or not, he gets rich off the backs of his contributors who are blind to what he really represents.
     
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  17. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Hard to know what this gibberish is really aimed at other than making yourself feel better about your own opinions. OK.

    But please, in your sad attempt to justify your far Right-wing ideology, please, please, don't even invoke "the scientific community" that your ilk rarely listens to, refuses to teach in schools because God is threatened, and you can't even come to grips with the entire climatology community when they say that our activities are killing the planet. You just don't have a leg to stand on.

    Your fantasy scenario experiment of putting over half the country on an island is ironic since you seem to already claim that you know the outcome in advance. Not very scientific is it? It's nice that you feel so superior that you never question your own position on anything. It's always those dreaded extreme liberals isn't it? You never let your lack of knowledge of any topic stop you from agitating your far Right ideologies do you?

    It you're that unhappy with the majority of the country, may I suggest you go live in Russia, You can have your strongman leader, your authoritarian, your preferred way of life. Sorry to dash your Right-wing Utopian fantasy but your ideology is destine for the garbage heap of history like your political party. The day of old white men running everything is over if only by demographics. Run scared to that island of yours and live your white male fantasy out in isolation. Who needs you anyway?
     
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  18. FryDaddyJr

    FryDaddyJr Member


    wow if that's your standard you must despise the likes of Trump who stole from his own charity and ran a scam university.
     
  19. toughcoins

    toughcoins Well-Known Member


    Wow, when one strikes a nerve you just completely unhinge. Gosh Joe, where shall I begin . . . ?


    Evidently, we listen to a different, less-extreme segment of the scientific community than you do, a community to which I do belong, by the way. I employ science everyday in my full-time profession. I know insufficient data, bad data, and self-serving data when I see them.


    Conservatives do not object to the teaching of science in schools . . . they just have a problem with the liberal refusal to acknowledge Christianity in schools. It's great to celebrate the ethnic holidays / traditions of other nations in the schools to promote diversity, but Christmas and Easter . . . those are taboo.


    I don't deny we are damaging the ecological balance of our planet, and I'm trying to make my contribution on the right side of that issue, but extreme environmentalists are duplicitous in their actions. When they drive their cars, heat their homes, take hot showers, refrigerate their food and run electric lights, just like the rest of us, yet complain about the burning of fossil fuels needed to generate the vast amount of electricity required to manufacture PV cells, windmill blades, EV batteries and the like, they fail to curtail their conveniences. I know . . . I live with one argues incessantly in support of the environmental cause yet refuses to put a sweater on, insisting instead on turning up the temperature in the house, and insisting on making multiple trips into town instead of planning ahead to consolidate them into one. I love her dearly, but can't stand the hypocritical arguments that she and her friends constantly blurt out.


    Extreme liberals don't make up half the country Joe . . . it's actually a much smaller, but incredibly loud, whiny group, and certainly could make a go of it if they didn't have doubts about their claims. You can't have socialism both ways Joe . . . you're either all in or all out, as European nations are beginning to realize.


    Putting words in my mouth Joe . . . like you defensively accuse others of doing to you? I claimed nothing of the outcome . . .


    Small scale testing is the essence of scientific investigation because large scale testing is too expensive and too risky. I suppose you'd have the CDC test the first proposed COVID-19 vaccination on every American citizen before conducting a confined test on a small sampling of subjects, hmm? Good way to kill the entire population, is it not? Forcing widespread socialism on the USA is essentially the same thing Joe. A downright unintelligent approach if you ask me, not that you would.


    There are plenty of things I agree with extreme liberals about (shared likes are far more common than our dislikes . . . food, music, entertainment, sports, hobbies), but we seem to confine our discussions here to our differences . . . after all, this website is named Partisan Lines, is it not?


    I'll pass because you and your cohort fit that societal model far better than mine.


    See you in November Joe . . .
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
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  20. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    I am not going to defend Trump’s foundation or his university. They are an embarrassment, and he should be ashamed of them.

    But as you condemning him, you need to also acknowledge what Hillary and Bill Clinton have done with their foundation. As you get more power, the temptation for corruption and greed gets stronger for many people.

    I will attack Sanders for being a sanctimonious, hypocritical socialist who tells us how bad capitalism is when he is practicing it himself. That is the M.O. for many socialist leaders. It’s capitalism and high living for them; socialism and just barely getting by for those who have to live under their rule. It’s been true for the whole push of them, from the Soviets, to the Cubans and now Madero in Venezuela.

    Sanders has never a real job in the private sector. He has lived on the public dime all of his life and has sucked as much money out of it as he could. He is a political capitalist, and all the claims he makes that he is “one of the people” is a bunch of bull.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
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