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Discussion in 'Politics' started by JoeNation, Jun 5, 2020.
The disgusting actions go both ways. I am sick to death of them all.
What goes both ways? This thread is about police brutality.
Oh I am sure that was the implication though it was never mentioned in the title or thread. So subjectively a person could glean from this that this is a thread about deplorable actions. And that was my personal interpretation....... The problem with the dilemma we find ourselves in as a nation is that there are always two views. Two stories. Two interpretations. I am admittedly a conservative minded man and don't hide that. I am willing to say mistakes have been made that do need to be addressed. Can the liberal minded folks do the same? Are they willing to say we too see mistakes that we need to address? Personally, I do not think so. This is an unconditional surrender demanded by the left. Throw the baby out with the bath water and do it my way... Period. There is no compromise with the left anymore. They fully believe they have now taken the moral high ground.
Neither of the posts starting this thread were liberal vs. conservative, black vs. white, etc. It was 2 videos of police attacking defenseless elderly people.
What do I know? I was born a poor privileged white guy....... Even though I am now an old privileged white guy, my momma instilled in me enough common sense to avoid walking headlong into a police barricade.
The first guy was walking away...
This homeless man was shot in the face. He couldn't get away because he had nowhere to go and is wheelchair bound. We have a problem with police accountability and group think within their organizations.
You have the right words in your last sentence, they're just not placed properly. It should read: We have a problem with accountability. This is not a one sided deal at all. Until you figure that out, this problem continues.
I'll concede that point. But you have to concede that there is just as much of a problem on the other side of this fence. We have a generation that has no concept of what respecting authority means. If I get into your face, I would surmise that you would defend yourself. This is something you simply cannot overlook. Young people walk the streets these days like a lawless posse on the dusty streets of the wild west. THIS GOES BOTH WAYS!! Yes, demand accountability from law enforcement. But dangit, demand personal accountability as well.
I like to use personal experiences. As a young man when I departed the Army the very first thing I did was buy a Harley-Davidson. I found a group of rugged looking fellows and tore up the streets. Well, we were pulled while pulling out of a watering hole late one night. One of my riding buddies was incensed. Cursing the cop for pulling him because he had long hair, etc. He found himself on the ground in cuffs. And by golly, he deserved it! I smiled and offered the cop my appropriate information and went on about my way..... I still know that fellow and to this day we laugh about that night. He knows he deserved what he got. And he concedes to this day that he was acting out to impress his buddies......
Until we can agree that concessions need to be made on both sides of this fence, we will only fall further into chaos.
There were also the groups of privileged German citizens that were lucky enough to fall into Hitler's ideals of the White Aryan Race in Nazi Germany and they saw no reason to question the authority of the Gestapo, the SS, and the Brown Shirts because they were not the ones being assaulted. They were comfortable with the images they saw on their streets as long it didn't affect them personally. They believed the Nazi propaganda of the dirty Jew, and amoral Gypsies, and those people that just wanted to agitate. They gave Hitler's secret police free reign to assault their neighbors, their friends, their families as long as it didn't affect them.
We are seeing exactly the same dynamic being played out in exactly the same way by exactly the same type of white men that we saw prior to WWII. The privileged class in Germany didn't see it at the time and I don't see a whole lot of introspection by you guys this time around either. You are too comfortable under the umbrella of "us vs them" that you have been taught and it is too hard for you to step out of your comfort zone and actually leave your homes and go out into the mess and figure out exactly what is going on.
I guess if history is any teacher, there will be a few words in the history books about people like you. People that stood up for Fascism. People that stood shoulder to shoulder with the oppressors. People that bow in submission to authority. People that sat down when it came time to do something. I believe the few words will look something like this:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
~Pastor Martin Niemöller
You keep harping on this situation being a generational issue. And that if the youth of today just had more respect for authority the way you do, everything would be better. I believe that is the gist of your argument. Correct me if I am wrong.
However, what you seem to be missing is that it is the very abuse of the authority you would have them respect that these youth are fight against. Personal accountability is exactly what they want...IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
The problem is that the police in this country are not accountable to anyone. They investigate themselves. They work hand-in-hand with prosecutors to make sure that they all come out of any situation smelling like roses. The system has turned corrupt practices into an art form and we only had to equip everyone with personal recording devices to see just how corrupt the policing in this country has become. And the police sure as hell weren't going to bow to any accountability even with video evidence. Even requiring them to use body cameras hasn't been effective because they just turn them off and then it gets covered up.
We have a problem with the police in this country and you want the youth to bow down to their authority? I hope like hell that they don't listen to you.
These are the same kids spitting on little league umpires...... Joe, you are making my argument. My argument is very specifically, that this has two sides. However the left is insistent that they have the moral high ground here. There is no compromise. Personal responsibility has absolutely nothing to do with the way a police officer treats you.... That is absurd. Personal responsibility has everything to do with the way the world treats you. You don't pay your bills and the bank treats you poorly. You disrespect women and you sleep alone at night. You get in a cops face and you find yourself on the ground. Does the left have some issue with personal responsibility? Are they not at all willing to be introspective at all?
So if the police treat you poorly, it's your own fault? If they murder you while complying with their commands, it's your own fault. Are the police ever responsible for their actions? It seems like you don't belive they have any accountability at all.
This is exactly it.
Personal accountability is not age specific. I know plenty of people my age and a few older even that still haven't figured this out. If you don't get out of bed and go to work, is it your workplaces fault that they fire you?
What Randy and I keep referring to is that it is more prevalent that the young of today are being raised without this.
No sir. You have spun my words. I said exactly the opposite of that. I did in fact say that I acknowledge that change needs to take place. And also ask that their is an acknowledgement that there is some responsibility that needs to take place on the other side of the fence. My exact words are below. And you have confirmed my question. To a liberals point of view, the opposition is lily white...... I would bet you a dollar to a bucket of piss that any man that addresses a law enforcement officer respectfully never has a negative run in with the law. In fact treating an officer respectfully has saved me a traffic ticket...... But no, act like an ass. That's OK in the 21st century. Personal responsibility is null and void these days.
I'll offer a personal perspective on being personally accountable. All throughout the 70's, 80's and 90's I was a smoker. I loved it. It was fashionable even though they were telling us that it would kill us. I was young and invincible and willing to accept the risk. Wednesday my dentist did an X-ray and found a big black smudge up high in my sinus cavity. He is setting me up with an ENT specialist because he says it has the look of the "C" word to him..... Should I rebel against the Army for putting cigarettes in my C-Rations boxes? Should I press legal action against the tobacco companies for glamorizing smoking all those years ago? Should I beat up my teenage buddy that gave me my first cigarette?....... No, I am responsible for the actions I took all those years ago. It is called personal responsibility. It is s rather unpopular concept these days, but would resolve a whole lot of problems.
Do we agree Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd? Even if you don't believe it was on purpose, he killed that man.
It took an entire nation protesting just to get the police to "take accountability" for his actions. That's the problem we're trying to fight. The police literally get away with murder in this country, and it needs to stop. It was never just about George Floyd and Derek Chauvin, it's a repeated problem that needs to be addressed.
I say this because I think you're missing the point of all this and trying to shift blame to muddy the issue. Sure, people on both sides do the wrong thing sometimes, but we need the police to be able to be held accountable for their wrongdoings.
P.S. by "both sides" I am referring to civilians and police.
Also I'm sorry to hear about your experience at the dentist, I wish you the best in that and hope it turns out to be nothing or at least benign if it is a tumor.
But you never once mentioned the police in any of your responses. You alluded to both sides, but that is pretty tepid. I can't speak for all the protesters actions. Nobody could and there are certainly people that are up to no good that make themselves apart of the movement. That isn't the fault of the movement but an inevitable consequence of civil unrest and standing up to authority.
If these same protesters stood out in an empty field with signs chanting and waving signs and didn't bother anyone, would they be on the news every night? Not a chance. But, if they march down city streets and make noise and raise their voices in protest to an unjust system, people pay attention. And yes, some people will take this situation and sew chaos and damage property. That is the nature of what it takes to change an unjust power structure. It's not like the powerful are just going to give up and go home. They need to be forced into the changes people want to see.
I already quoted JFK once and the dynamic I laid out above is exactly what he described. If you respected Kennedy then you have to respect his words as well.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."