So, the impeachment inquiry is on

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JoeNation, Nov 1, 2019.

  1. JoeNation

    JoeNation Patron Saint of Idiots

    How many witnesses have now corroborated the quid pro quo now? 5? 6? No matter how Republicans try to spin this, the damage is done. Trump overtly tried to use the power of his office and the taxpayer's money to get a foreign power to investigate one of his political rivals.

    You can't avoid the realization that the articles of impeachment will inevitably include obstruction of justice based on the Trump Administration's refusal to cooperate at any level. It's always the cover-up isn't it?

    This will play out in the courts, the congress, and the court of public opinion, as well as in the history books. Nixon still has his defenders, Bill Clinton's crime of lying to congress was valid. Is that enough to overturn a election? Some say yes and some say no.

    Trump continues to throw gasoline on the impeachment fire. Let's see how that works out for him.
  2. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Well-Known Member

    Yes, I did hear that report. And it sickens me that I pay these elected leaders to tie up our government for many months with this. Whether they reach an impeachment verdict or not, this whole fiasco accomplishes nothing. Which is exactly what they have been accomplishing the previous three years. This is grandstanding at its finest. Nothing more. If they were in my employ (and rightfully they are), not one of these self important bags of human puke make one red cent. I am so sick of this unending fiasco I could just scream.
  3. JoeNation

    JoeNation Patron Saint of Idiots

    Only if you consider holding our elected officials to the oath of office they took as accomplishing nothing I suppose. If someone, anyone, either side, willfully breaks the laws of this country, laws enshrined in the Constitution of our land, then they need to be held accountable. Don't you agree?

    Clearly, the Republicans have no intention of risking their own jobs by abiding by the oath they took but I am glad that one group of elected officials does take their oath seriously. Party over country is what the Republicans stand for these days. How long do you think our country can survive with loyalty to a political party rather than the laws this country was founded on? Not long. Not long at all. No matter the political consequences for the country today, a necessary cleansing of corrupt officials will benefit future generations. I am willing to suffer the protracted divisive process for that outcome for my children and their children.

    Am I glad that this process is clearly aimed at the other side of the aisle, OH YEAH! Because it proves everything I have always thought about Republican politicians. They are corrupt to their core and have been for decades. Recent history is filled with their disregard for country and their irrational devotion to their own party. I say good riddance to all GOP politicians like I would say good riddance to a moldy piece of of cheese. They made their own beds and now must lay in them. I can't feel sorry for them.
  4. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Well-Known Member

    Joe, I know you are smart enough to recognize there are good and bad in every group. Not everyone that considers themselves conservative are filled with greed and self serving intentions. However it may be fair to paint with that wide brush a similar analogy for most professional politicians regardless of party affiliation these days. I could offer similar evidence that is just as damning for those wearing the liberal title, however I am not interested in a tit for tat disagreement here.... Joe, I have said it before and I will say it again. We conservatives love our country no differently than you do. And most of us do not live our lives as greedy, self-serving people.

    I suppose I may be sticking my foot in my mouth as I am not taking the time to investigate what I am about to say. If I am stating this incorrectly, I fully admit up front that I am making this statement out of assumption.... I do not know the oath of office taken by our elected leaders. However I would bet that a portion of that oath... And I would surmise likely a large part of that oath has to do with serving the people that took the time and effort to elect them. What has taken place these previous three years and for the foreseeable future has absolutely nothing to do with serving the people. It has everything to do with serving an agenda.

    See Joe.... I have nothing personally invested in either side of this. You know my position. I run a small business whose success or failure has everything to do with the health of the economy. We did well under Bush and Clinton. We did not do so well under Obama. We are currently thriving. I am looking across the hall at new offices being built for two new employees. And frankly I am scared to death. I made a long term commitment to two young men with wives and kids. I committed to them that in return for them giving me forty hours of their lives each week, that I would compensate their efforts financially so they could feed their kids each day. If this current chaos leads to a decline in the economic climate in this country, then by God I will suffer before I make these young people suffer. It is simply unconscionable to me that our elected leaders accomplish absolutely nothing other than this destructive self serving roadway they have been driving hellbent for three years. The sad reality is that whatever damage they do to the economy that every American relies upon, will not effect them one iota. What then is their motivation to do otherwise?? I say pull their financial lifelines and see what you get then. I am sick of all these useless people and political agendas. Do what you were hired to do!!
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  5. JoeNation

    JoeNation Patron Saint of Idiots

    As you can see, the oath of office has nothing with serving constituents or political ideologies. It is an oath to the ideals that this country was founded on. The whims of the constituencies of the day are irrelevant and for good reason. They vacillate like the wind.

    Oath of Office

    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

    I never questioned conservatives. I questioned GOP Politicians. They lie to their base as much or more than any politicians. I'm sure that you and other conservative are fine people one-on-one like many Americans on both sides. Heck, my neighbors are very conservative and I love them to pieces. Do I like their political stances? NO, but we don't talk politics either.
  6. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Well-Known Member

    What does Mister Average American gain from all this posturing and grandstanding? Their elected leadership has done zilch, zero, nada, nothing to serve his interests. This fiasco serves the interests of 234 congressmen, 45 senators and 18 presidential hopefuls. That is all. To hell with Mister Average American. And mark my words. This impeachment circus will do nothing but to slowly strangle the health out of our current economic vibrancy. And this from the greatest nation on earth. It's damn shameful.
  7. JoeNation

    JoeNation Patron Saint of Idiots

    So you're blaming Democrats for abiding by their oath of office while giving every single Republican a pass for not abiding by their oath of office? Tell me again how Republicans are for the rule of law and stanch supporters of the Constitution? You can't have it both ways. This process will inevitably force you to choose your loyalties to one or the other. Do you support a lawless Administration or the principles of the Constitution? Tough choice. I wouldn't want to be you. Fortunately, I don't have to be.

    Look, I know and you know Trump's inexperience and complete lack of morals brought us to the current situation. It was just a matter of time. Fortunately, our system is equipped with checks and balances for just such an occasion. Let it play out how it will and maybe this ship we call America will right itself. That's the best advice I can give.
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  8. JohnHamilton

    JohnHamilton Well-Known Member

    Yea, and all but one of them is based on hear-say evidence. "I heard from so and so that Trump said this."
    That is garbage "evidence" that means nothing. Anyone on can spreat gossip.

    The one person who did hear the conversation says "He THOUGHT that what was said was improper. That is one man's opinion, not a statement of fact.

    Since it's all made up and none of your charges have gotten anywhere, there is no reason for impeachment, but you are going to get it. The reason is that we coming close to where Brennen, Comy and company might be getting close to being indicted for what they have done. Part of this is a sideshow to take the attention away from them. They will probably be indicted for lying to the FISA Count among other things.

    The other aspect of this is that Schiff and company are looking to keep the negative news going in preparation for the 2020 election. Your candidates are all pretty bad Joe, and which ever one of them gets the nomination will need a lot of help.

    Nixon was guilty of obstruction of justice and other crimes. Clinton was not on the up and up, but what he did was not to the level of impeachment. Trump also has done nothing to the level of impeachment, except winning the 2016 election. That is his only crime.

    As for the history books, having read many of them, I've learned that it often depends upon who is writing them.

    One of the first important books that I read at a young age was The Age of Jackson by Arthur Schlesinger Jr. It won the Pulitzer in the mid 1940s and was long considered to be the authoritative book on Jackson. Schlesinger rated him as a “near great” president. Schlesinger properly praised him for getting the people involved in the political process, but he glossed over the big issue of what he did to the economy with his “bank war.” More concerning was that Schlesinger gave him a total pass on when he did to the Cherokee Indians and the Trail of Tears. For that Jackson deserves condemnation.

    Schlesinger was a Democrat who served in the Kennedy administration. He had a political point of view, and that was reflected in his writing. One needs to keep this in mind when you are reading history books.
  9. JoeNation

    JoeNation Patron Saint of Idiots

    If Trump is so innocent, you'd think he'd open the doors to vault and prove it. Hum? I wonder why he has refused to cooperate with any investigation and at the same time has his lawyers arguing that everything he did before and while in office can't be investigated nor can he even be charged with overt criminal behaviors? Probably because he is totally innocent. o_O
  10. JohnHamilton

    JohnHamilton Well-Known Member

    Trump released a copy of the transcript of the Biden affair almost as soon as it surfaced. Since then it’s nothing but hearsay. The president needs some of level confidentiality to do his job. He can’t publish every transcript of every conversation he has with every world leader. You can’t conduct diplomacy that way.

    Yet that’s what the Democrats want on everything because their goal is cause him to fail. That’s what the Democrats want a failed administration so that they can get back in to power.

    As for you Joe, Trump is guilty until he is proven guilty. If he is proven innocent, you still say he’s guilty. Your accusations have not credibility because you have no objectivity.

    You despise the man so much, that you can’t even be a credible critic. Unfortunately the Democrats, who should better, are doing the same thing. In the end, it’s going to hunt them, and it's hurting the American people.
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  11. JoeNation

    JoeNation Patron Saint of Idiots

    No he didn't. He released a redacted copy which omitted key parts of the conversation. Even the parts he did release, clearly showed that there was a quid pro quo.

    Not true again. People with direct access to the call have established that there was a quid pro quo and many of those people have corroborated each others accounts. Your take is just a Fox News parroting of the lies the Trump Administration is telling, nothing more.

    No one asked him to, just this one particular call. He has it hidden in a super secret storage unit reserved for only the most top secret materials. I wonder why?

    So you say. Hearsay actually.

    I'm willing to let the impeachment inquiry play out. Are you?

    You're such a butt kissing sycophant you can't see beyond your own party's self-interests. Corruption hurts the American people. The GOP is completely willing to accept it. So are you.
  12. JohnHamilton

    JohnHamilton Well-Known Member

    Yes, and is what you said a promise? It would be a major change for you.

    People who know me know that I am anything but a butt kisser. I am more of a butt kicker, and that's one of the reasons why I'm here, to kick your butt. When I first found this site, but could not post because I was not a member, I thought that you are a bully. I don’t like bullies.

    As for Trump, he is too thin skinned. He needs to ignore some of his critics or have a surrogate go after them. That is often the duty of a vice president.

    He also sometimes says too much on Twitter, although that is his only platform given the total hostility from the fake news media.

    His Middle East policy is also a concern although the desire to get out their endless civil wars is valid. The only reason why we need to be there is to prevent another 9/11. People should have learned that this “nation building thing” is garbage there. How do you build a nation like Afghanistan where there is no nation? It’s just a place on the map with a name a bunch of tribes.

    I’m sure that he is probably a bear to work for, but some organizations work best with constant change. Whether or not that works in government remains to be seen.

    There – a little objectivity. You should try it some time.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  13. JoeNation

    JoeNation Patron Saint of Idiots

    Ahh! The superhero complex I see in so many right-wingers. You have to save the world from the scourge of the socialist communist hordes. So cute I almost see you in red leotards and a blue cape. Too funny really.

    Who are you saving anyway, the three other people that frequent this site? I think I need to come up with a superhero name for you. How about Captain Depends! Defends the world from the comfort of his wife's pension. Diligently defines Socialism and Fascism as the the same thing. Is an expert in history while professing a profound ignorance of current events. Can leap tall logic with irrational Fox news views. The scourge of science and reason. I think I see you now.

  14. JohnHamilton

    JohnHamilton Well-Known Member

    You have outed what you are. You are sick. No one in their right mind would post this.

    And yes, there is little difference between communism and fascism. They are two sides of the same coin. The difference only became evident when Stalin joined the allies to save his skin after Hitler broke their "non aggression pact."

    Thank you for posting this. You have ended whatever credibility you once had.
  15. JoeNation

    JoeNation Patron Saint of Idiots

    Who made you the arbiter of credibility?
  16. JohnHamilton

    JohnHamilton Well-Known Member

    All I am saying to you is that you would far more impressive if you could find a way to tone it down. If we are talking about Hitler or Stalin, sure, there is nothing good you can say about them, but even there I would avoid using vulgar language 100% of the time as you do in your tag line.

    Look at it this way. Do you think that Congresswoman Tlieb has changed any minds by calling Trump a “mother f**ker?” Perhaps you do, but I think most people would say not.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
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  17. Recusant

    Recusant Member

    This is such a common trope among right wing ideologues that I shouldn't have been surprised that JohnHamilton parrots it, but I had foolishly hoped for a more discerning point of view from him. I checked, and there it is: Communism = socialism = Fascism

    Ah, well, you live and learn. The ease with which he dismissed the Encyclopædia Brittanica article you linked is telling. Historical facts be damned; political tunnel vision has no use for them. Perhaps there is no hope that JohnHamilton will ever accept historical reality, but others here may.

    "Nazism, socialism and the falsification of history" | ABC

    The attempt to equate Nazism with socialism predates Goldberg's book, but it serves as a convenient watershed and, as JohnHamilton demonstrates, it has become a standard reference for those who would falsify history to serve their political agenda.
  18. JohnHamilton

    JohnHamilton Well-Known Member

    Under the Fascist / Nazi systems nominal property right titles exist, but the state can regulate those rights to the point where they are meaningless. In other words that state can do whatever it wants with the property without due process. Some private innovation is acceptable so long as it consistent with the policies of the state.

    If you are good little Fascist or Nazi and stay on good terms with the state, you can continue to use your property, especially it is a munitions plant that is supply the tools of war to the government.

    Those who protest or don’t knuckle under the state a subject to penalties ranging from imprisonment to death. Under the Nazis, if you were a Jew, Gypsy or some other unacceptable race, you were arbitrarily sent to a work / death camp or executed outright. Mussolini, as a Fascist, disagreed with “the finial solution” and tired to avoid sending Jews to Germany for execution. That was a minor difference between the two systems.

    Socialism is the most benign of the three systems. The state holds title to all of the major means of production. In some cases, limited property rights might exist for a while, but they are limited to a residence and maybe a very small business. So far as most of the production of goods and services are concerned, the state owns and controls them.

    Since the state controls the means of production, private innovation is limited. To put forth a new idea that required capital, you must sell it the state bureaucrats who run the system. Without their approval, the idea is effectively dear.

    Limited dissent is tolerated, but only the extent to where it poses no threat to the state. Radical differences, such as giving power to freely elected officials who would support a return or the introduction of capitalism would not be tolerated.

    Lenin once described socialism as the waystation to communism.

    Communism requires the total ownership of the means of production and all real property. All aspects of the economy are planned and run by the state. People are told where to live and under what conditions. In return the state promises to give the people “free health care” and other services, but the track record for quality has been poor.

    Dissent is not tolerated, and those who do actively disagree with the government are imprisoned, sent to work camps or executed.

    In the end, none of these three systems is consistent with the Jeffersonian principle of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” They are all totalitarian to one degree or another with the state called all of almost all of the shots.

    Contrary to popular belief among socialist millennials, the Scandinavian countries are not socialist. Large corporations thrive there, and their corporate tax rate is about 20%, which similar to the one that was included in Trump’s tax reform package. According to the agencies that rate corporate freedom they are subject to less regulation that in the United States.

    The big differences are in the individual tax rates. Once you make the U.S. equivalent of $70,000 or so, the marginal income tax rate goes above 50%. The kicker is a nasty hidden levy called the Value Added Tax. It ads 25% to the cost of the consumer goods and services and drives up the cost of living considerably. Like all sales taxes, it is regressive because it hits low income harder than it does higher wage and salary owners.

    In return for having well over half of your income taken by the government, you get a large array of state sponsored services.

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