Now There is A Headline I thought I'd Never See

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JoeNation, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Are we? How would you know? Would blind Nationalism keep you from even realizing that you live in a rogue state?

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    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
  2. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    I hear this. And I did see the Trump baby balloon displayed on his visit to Great Britain. But here’s the deal....... Do you remember when the Iranians released the American hostages? It was on Reagan’s Election Day. There was a clear message there. Those terrorists knew they could play Mr. Carter like a fiddle. However they feared Mr. Reagan. They wanted no part of him. Believe me when I say the North Koreans are a very real threat. Mr. Trump has kept that crazy little man in line so far. Mark my words.... The first sign of weakness detected you can believe that little man has no qualms about being aggressive. And being aggressive in a mass casualty kind of way. I could give a hoot what the general populace of the European Union feels about the man as long as he has the courage to keep the dangerous men at bay, I am fine with him.
     
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  3. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Yeah, about that favorite Republican bedtime story. It is actually another work of fiction like Melania's college degrees, or her modeling career, or her Einstein visa. Pure nonsense.


    Some stories are too good to check, and some myths are too perfect to bust. We’ve seen that dynamic in action all month, as GOP presidential candidates trot out their favorite foreign policy anecdote: the Parable of the Hostages.

    The story goes that on the day of his inauguration, in January 1981, President Reagan convinced the Iranian regime to free the American Embassy hostages more or less just by glaring harshly in the direction of Tehran, which quailed in the face of his unyielding toughness and released the Americans immediately.

    According to this appealing version of recent history, Iran had kept the hostages during the Carter administration because they knew Carter was "weak," but they so feared Reagan’s red-blooded American resolve that they acquiesced the second he was sworn into office. The moral of the story, therefore, is that negotiating with Iran or any of America’s enemies is a sign of harmful weakness, whereas refusal to negotiate shows Reagan-like strength that will protect Americans.

    It will perhaps not surprise you to learn that this version of history is not remotely accurate. While there is a kernel of truth — the hostages were, in fact, released on the day Reagan was inaugurated — the rest of the story bears no resemblance to the myth that has risen around it. But the bigger question is not just whether the story is true (it is not), but why it is so appealing to the current GOP candidates. The answer tells us a lot about the state of Republican Party foreign policy — and what the candidates think Republican primary voters want to hear.

    The problem with this story: Iran released the embassy hostages because of Carter's negotiations, not in spite of them
    The boring and emotionally unsatisfying truth is that the Carter administration secured the Americans' release through protracted negotiations — and by releasing millions of dollars to the Iranian government.

    A little background is probably in order here. On November 4, 1979, a militant student group called the Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line stormed the US Embassy in Tehran, occupied the grounds, and took the more than 60 American diplomats and embassy staff there prisoner.

    The hostages were held for 444 days. During that period, the Carter administration tried to secure their release through a military operation, which failed catastrophically, and then through a series of secret negotiations.

    The negotiations were protracted and very messy, largely because of tensions between Iran's hard-liners and more moderate factions within their government. On several occasions, the Carter administration believed it had reached a final agreement, only to see the deal scuttled at the last minute by Iranian leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

    But Carter and his negotiators kept working through the very end of his presidency, and eventually, at the last possible moment, they succeeded. On January 19, 1981, the US and Iran signed the Algiers Accords, an agreement brokered by the Algerian government that secured the hostages' release in exchange for concessions by the US, including sanctions relief, the release of frozen Iranian assets, and the creation of the Iran–United States Claims Tribunal that would remove cases against Iran from US courts.

    The hostages were released the following day, January 20, 1981 — the day Reagan was inaugurated.

    In other words, Rubio and Cruz's version of events is straight-up false. The hostages were released in exchange for sizable concessions from the United States — exactly the sort of process they deride as weak — and not because Ronald Reagan was a tough and scary gentleman whose mere presence in the Oval Office panicked Khomeini into capitulating.

    Why did the Iranians wait until Reagan took office to release the hostages?


    [​IMG]
    (National Archives and Records Administration via Wikimedia Commons)

    It is true that it was Reagan, not Carter, who got to inform the nation that the hostages had left Iran and were on their way to safety in Germany. So why did that happen?

    The answer, according to Mark Bowden's book Guests of the Ayatollah, which painstakingly chronicles the hostage negotiations and release, is that the Iranian regime hated Carter. Because he was in office at the time of Iran's 1979 revolution, Carter became fixed in the Iranian public imagination as the personification of the "great satan" itself. So, Bowden writes, Iran had timed the release to deprive him of the final satisfaction of announcing the negotiations' success.


    "The Iranians were deliberately stalling," Bowden writes. "They had decided to accept the deal and send the hostages home, but they had also decided to deny Carter the satisfaction of seeing it happen on his watch."

    Gary Sick, who was Carter's chief aide on Iran during the hostage crisis, claimed in his book October Surprise that Reagan's campaign manager, William Casey, reached out to the Iranians to ask them to delay releasing the hostages until after the November elections. But even if that did happen (and it's worth noting that Sick, as a Carter administration official, had reason to be bitter toward Reagan's campaign staff), there's little evidence that Casey's overtures would have actually affected the timing of the release.

    According to Bowden, several of the Iranian officials involved in the negotiations confirmed that Casey had reached out to them, but said that his efforts hadn't actually affected the talks. Carter was already so unpopular in Tehran that the regime didn't need any further incentive to torpedo his electoral chances.

    Indeed, if Reagan did have an effect on the hostages' release, it was to make the Iranians more invested in Carter's negotiations. On the campaign trail, Reagan insisted that he would never negotiate with Tehran. The Iranians thus believed, perhaps correctly, that making a deal with Carter would be the best way to ensure that they benefited from releasing the hostages.

    According to Bowden, Reagan ended up becoming "bad cop" to Carter's "good cop" — a way to force the Iranians to negotiate in good faith by claiming that a deal had to be done before Carter left office.

    But even if that good cop/bad cop dynamic was ultimately an effective tactic, it's not clear this was deliberate, and it was a far cry from the picture that Rubio and Cruz paint. In their telling, the negotiations were a useless show of weakness that ultimately failed, and Reagan's toughness won the day. But to the extent that Reagan's "bad cop" toughness influenced the hostage release at all, it was by encouraging the negotiations — the opposite, in other words, of what they are claiming.

    https://www.vox.com/2016/1/25/10826056/reagan-iran-hostage-negotiation
     
  4. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Yeah, about North Korea. Trump has no agreement, North Korea still has a nuclear missile program three years later and is still firing missiles, Trump has succeeded in lending this petty dictator legitimacy by meeting with him twice. Trump canceled military exercises with South Korea at the request of North Korea and they gave up nothing in return. Trump says that he and Kim Jong-Un fell in love. Nothing, zero has been accomplished by Trump except that this murderous regime now has more legitimacy.

     
  5. CoinBlazer

    CoinBlazer Ready for War!

    Low confidence? I'm sure they would have better confidence if we start pulling out the magic check book.
     
  6. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    I'll say, Joe. I was but a youngster on a hot firing pad in Germany when that transition took place. I would not pretend to know the history you brought to this and I certainly was not aware that Rubio & Cruz were repeating it. I only knew what I was told to know back then. Certainly puts a different light on things.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
    JoeNation likes this.
  7. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I never trust what any of them say. I look at what they actually do. They càn lie about their intentions but not about their actions. Actions leave a trail. Lies are just repeated.
     
  8. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Then again, USA Today just conducted a poll and asked Republicans if they thought Trump mentioned Biden in his Ukraine call. Only 4 out 10 think Trump did mention Biden even after Trump admitted talking about Biden to the Ukrainian President. Low information folks or just willful ignorance in support of their dear leader?
     
  9. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Admittedly I am not armed with the facts here. But I will offer an answer that I would bet most average working Americans would concur with;
    • To the average guy on the street, in a head to head match up of Trump Vs. Biden, it isn't even remotely a race. The average American is moderate. Biden will only secure the "democrat or die" voters. So what would Trump have to gain really?
    • I bet if I were to go and poll the "real" average American he would tell you that he is so darned sick of every gastrointestinal movement that Trump has being investigated that they could just scream. We do not pay these people to investigate. We pay them to work. Get over it and get to work... PLEASE...
    • The average working American remembers not all that long ago when work was thin and paychecks were tough. Chalk it up to Obama's policy or Trump policy. The average guy doesn't really care. He is comfortable and likes it this way so let's not go changing anything.
    That is the most uninformed "man in the street" observance you will see. And tell me this.... I been hearing polling results out the kazoo for years now. I am active in my community and active in my polling place. Why have I never, not once been asked to participate in a poll of any kind? I am really starting to wonder if these polls really take place or if it is fluff put out by reporters trying to create a story.
     
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  10. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    But Trump did bring up the Bidens. That fact is not in dispute. He also asked for a favor. Also not in dispute. The favor was an investigation into Hunter Biden. Not in dispute. Trump withheld promised aid to Ukraine. Not in dispute. Trump publicly said that he may ask China to investigate Biden today. I hope he does. That would amount to another impeahment article.

    Trump is losing it because he knows that he and his cabal have been caught. I just have to ask, if Trump has been the target of continued impeahment harassment by the Democrats, why hand them the gun they need to accomplish it? How can a stable genius be that dumb?
     
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  11. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    I do not disagree one bit. I am just telling you that the average working man couldn't give a darn. We are truly just worn out with it all. Yes, Trump is likely digging his own hole right now. Even he is forgetting why we put him there.
     
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  12. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    The polls were wrong in the last presidential election, and part of the reason for that is because we don't trust the news media any more. I am sure that there are some people who are giving these pollsters the answers they want to hear just to throw them off. Other polls are bogus because of the way they are structured.

    All Americans should have an interest in what Biden and his son have done. Companies don’t pay people with no practical or academic qualifications $50,000 a month. That should be a concern, especially when the recipient of that money is the son of the sitting Vice President of the United States. It should also concern people when the vice president brags about getting a prosecutor fired by holding up a billion dollars in aid, ON CAMERA.

    Nations don’t hand our 1.5 billion in capital to people with shaky qualifications and a record of alcohol and cocaine abuse.

    There is something not right about this whole business, and I suspect that it will sink Joe Biden before it’s over.
     
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  13. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I don't know what the average working man thinks. I don't even know how I would go about figuring that out. I suspect most of the country, and I can't define most, could care less about what Trump or any other politician does or doesn't do or say. I do base that suspicion on the number of people that never bother to vote however, and it takes a highly publicized political fight to get them to pay any attention to politics at all. Americans do tend to become rivited to politics during these high profile scandals because the American people like the drama of a good political fight as much as any other citizens around the world do. I'm pretty sure the Democrats are counting on that fact just as the Republicans counted on the public to notice Bengazi.
     
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  14. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    There is one of the few honest statements you have made. You really don’t care about “the little people” because all you want to do from your Communist ivory tower is rule over them. You think that you know want’s best for everyone because you have one or more college degrees in who knows what. You sure don’t know anything about economics, that’s for sure.

    I’ll admit that I don’t like most Democrats, especially the bunch that is running Congress now. They are a group of dangerous demagogues.

    But I will also say that I have ready to give the opposition credit when they do things right. Here are four things that Obama got right:
    • He retained Bush’s secretary of defense after he took office because he viewed him as the best qualified for the job.
    • He retained Bush’s tax cuts when the economy was still fragile and did not bow to the “fairness argument” where taxes are raised simply to “get the rich.”
    • His drone strikes against murderous, radical Muslim leaders were highly effective and probably had them crapping their pants, wondering who would be next.
    • He got bin Laden.
    There, I have said four good things about Obama because I agreed with him those issues.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  15. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    This is what Hunter Biden is professionally and what he did for Burisma Holdings:

    Robert Hunter Biden is an American lawyer and lobbyist who is the second son of former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden. He is a partner at Rosemont Seneca Partners, an international consulting firm.

    Biden served on the board of Burisma Holdings, a major Ukrainian natural gas producer, from 2014 to 2019. In 2019, President Donald Trump claimed that Joe Biden had sought the dismissal of a Ukrainian prosecutor in order to protect Hunter Biden, although extensive press reporting and the Ukrainian government have found no evidence to support the claim. The investigation into Burisma only pertained to events happening before Hunter Biden joined the company. There was also no other evidence produced of wrongdoing by the Bidens. Trump's alleged attempt to pressure the Ukrainian government to investigate the Bidens by withholding foreign aid triggered an impeachment inquiry against Trump in September 2019.

    I keep hearing this accusation that he must have done something wrong because nobody would pay someone with Biden’s qualifications 50K a month to sit on their Board. The truth is that he is a partner in an international consulting firm and a lobbyist. Lobbyists and lawyers tend to make lots of money. So if all you have is innuendos and zero proof of any wrong doing, you come off sounding pretty ridiculous parroting idiotic debunked Right-wing conspiracy theories. Put up or shut up as they say.
     
  16. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I also don't try and tell people what they think, or what they believe, or what they care about.
     
  17. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    Now that's a funny statement from a big bully like you. You hate with such a passion that it is eating you up.

    You have no objectively, and that’s why you have little credibility.
     
  18. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Again, pot meet kettle.
     
  19. JohnHamilton
    Pensive

    JohnHamilton Active Member

    I cited four things that Obama did right. You can’t do that for Trump. Of course, your answer would be that he does everything wrong.

    Think back into history. Can say you say anything good about a Republican president say from Eisenhower to the present? Perhaps you can say something good about Theodore Roosevelt. He was a progressive, but he wasn’t socialist.

    Oh, but I almost forgot. According to you the entire history of this country has been about war and imperialism. The United States is “the evil empire” to steal a line from Ronald Reagan.

    Has there every been a country in the world, past or present. whose conduct has pleased you? You probably won’t answer the question because that’s what you do when you get backed up into a corner.

    BTW, those are nice graphics that your leaders are supplying to you. They look very professional.

    In the mean time you can look at the source of my avatar in the “Chatter” section. No, I didn’t get that picture of a Lincoln campaign item from another website.
     
  20. JoeNation
    Angelic

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

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