I read this the other day and had to wonder....

Discussion in 'Politics' started by JoeNation, Jan 26, 2020.

  1. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I will give people the benefit of the doubt that belong to this forum but since some of you reside in conservative conclaves and are privy to conversations I may not be privy to, I have to ask, have you ever met anyone that fits this description? Would you admit it if you had?

    and I paraphrase:
    'he was not elected for his patriotism, knowledge, or ethics; he was elected to attack the people they hate'
    In a nutshell there is nothing he will be judged for other than how mean his bite is.
    He can lie, cheat, waste tax dollars, destroy the environment, take away health care, take away social entitlements, anything as long as he blames and shames someone else that the far right white minority hate.
    As more and more people point out how bat shit crazy he is, they only increase the hatred.
    There is no longer any reasonable way to confront the madness. He is feeding on animosity and his venom is like manna for his minions.
    I read today that it is like trying to hold on to a fire hose.
    How the hell are we going to shut off the water?
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  2. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Wow, Joe.... That’s a bit off the rails. No the average conservative isn’t thinking in these terms. To the average conservative, madness is what we hear being screamed at us by the ultra-left. Those who refuse to see a middle and more moderate ground. They have no tolerance for it. If I am not singing love songs to my trees, I am suddenly an intolerable racist beast. The man is a duly elected president that has faced the most partisan road blocked congress in our history..... Take away our health care?? Really??? When did health care become a gift? Did I miss something? This man is far less crazy than these elite leftists that are spewing all this hatred. I can plainly see where the intolerance lies in our nation currently. A hard look in the mirror is in order I believe.
  3. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Well, first of all, I didn't write it. I don't agree or disagree with what it says. I would say that I am equanimous when it comes to the topic. I was just wondering if anyone here has met anyone that really thinks this way. I ask because the way the Left is oft described here, is nothing like the people I meet that are liberal. I believe it is the case that both sides define the other side in the most extreme terms possible which in reality, make up a tiny fraction of the bulk of either the Left or the Right. I'll have to ask my brother-in-law next time I see him. He is a Trumper and I wonder if he will agree or disagree with the statement.

    You have pretty much labeled liberals as tree lovers, tree huggers, or tree whatever, in your response and I have to admit that I have never met anyone Left or Right that fits that label. I am no recluse either and I've lived all over the country so if these types of people exist, they are pretty good at hiding and surely do not define any large group I can think of.

    You came here looking to understand the divide in this country if I am correct. Are you entirely sure that you aren't participating in that divide?

    But even more interesting is something you said that I found surprising. You said: Take away our health care?? Really??? When did health care become a gift? Did I miss something?

    Health care isn't a gift, it is human right. If you disagree, who exactly do you think doesn't deserve health care? What do you suppose Jesus would think about the way we care for the least of our brothers? Why should health care be reserved for the privileged?
  4. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    No I do not believe that at all. But turn things around for just one second. Why should those of us that have worked hard and paid for health care be forced to carry the burden of those that do not have it? Everything has a cost and value associated with it. Some years ago when we expanded government benevolence we ended up with an entire class that believes their life should be government supported. Speaking from Scripture Paul tells us in his letter to the Thessalonians, "We give you this rule. If a man shall not work, he shall not eat".... So Joe, that sword cuts both ways. And I am a man that firmly believes in helping another man up when he is knocked down. And I put my money where my mouth is on that as well.... I have long believed that a mans self worth is gained by his work. And a man without self worth is often on the government dole..... A few years back our state had implemented a plan where an unemployed person had to make three attempts at seeking employment before he could get his unemployment check. I wish I could remember the number of unemployed people that came in my door asking that I sign their form stating they asked me for a job. In fact, they seldom if ever asked me for a job. Only for my signature.... So Joe, where do we draw the line? No, health care is not free. No, Obamacare isn't free either. It is only an additional fine levied by the IRS for failing to have it. Neither are food, gas, phones, automobiles, clothes or anything else free. Yet working people subsidize this each and every day.

    Now last night I had returned from a grueling four day road trip and was not in my most gentlemanly mood. I do apologize for the labels I placed in my previous posting. That is not how I truly feel. But yes you have touched on something that I do firmly believe. And I believe it is at the core of our division. The extremists have the loudest voices on either side. And on either side it does feel like an all on attack. And frankly, our president has been under attack for three years. That cannot be denied. I believe there is absolutely nothing he could do that would achieve any bi-partisan support. Absolutely nothing. So who is to blame? Who will, if anyone will take the boxing gloves off first in this climate? Heaven knows we could use some real work and effort getting done in our Capitol.

    As to your initial question, I would surmise most conservative minded folks are much like me. We get up each day and do the best we can with the cards we have been dealt. I doubt that many are wringing their hands and fretting so over the accusations made toward our president. We just want to get through our day and return to the warmth of our homes and families.
    SmalltownMN likes this.
  5. SmalltownMN

    SmalltownMN Member

    Well said, Randy, and I agree 100%. Sadly, my oldest stepson is one that seems to think that the government owes him a living. I tried helping the young man and he pissed it all away. Too many of the people that are taking the benefits that are offered are 100% capable of working, they just choose not to. It ticks me off that my tax money goes for that. As you stated, there are people that genuinely need the help, and that is fine, I'm glad that the programs are in place for those people. To the others that are milking the cow for all it's worth..........not so much.
    Mopar Dude likes this.
  6. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    You've said a lot but really nothing I haven't heard from the Right before. It is all pretty boilerplate right-wing beliefs. People are too lazy to work. They have the same advantages I had. I did it, why can't they? Yada yada yada.

    If you cut through all the rationalizations, in my opinion, it simply comes down to two points that while never vocalized, are always inferred:

    A. I am judging others
    B. I am better than others

    Helping others should come without judgement, without a feeling of superiority. I always here Republicans say how they are these great charitable people but then you see the policies they support and have to ask yourself how can these people call themselves charitable or even moral.

    I am not trying to condemn you personally. Like I sad, I don't now you and you don't know me so don't take this personally. I am highly involved in social justice issues and the biggest roadblocks to social justice in this country is always, always the GOP. If you support the GOP, you also support those roadblocks.
  7. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    You are correct. And I believe we both have high moral values. Social justice is a very wide open concept. Is it wrong to expect an able bodied man to earn his way? I suspect we both know the answer. But going back to your initial post where you paraphrased a committed left opinion... The following assertions are leveled;
    • Lie
    • Cheat
    • Waste Tax Dollars
    • Destroy The Environment
    • Take Away Health Care
    • Take Away Social Entitlements
    • Blames & Shames Others the Far Right Minority Hate... (This one gave me a laugh)
    My intent was to address one of the felonious assertions because it is such a demonstrably hollow statement. That being taking away health care. To date that I am aware of health care has never been a given unless you were military, aged (and that comes with a cost), handicapped or very poor and on Medicaid. The great smokescreen of Obamacare was that something was being given away for nothing. That was never the case. It was however implied and assumed by many. It is no secret that any sick person can enter an emergency room and be treated. That has always been the case...... See, I could dress down any of these ridiculous assertions made above. I chose to zero in on health care because it is so blatantly obvious that these words are absolutely meaningless. They were only said to incite visceral hatred. Health care has not been taken from anyone.
  8. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Thanks for your reasoned responds. MD. You always find your center. :)

    Anyway, as far as taking away health care, the Republicans already tried it and failed on John McCains refusal to go along with the rest the GOP and Trump. Secondly, Trump recently said that he is going after Medicare and Social Security. There is nothing Trump and the GOP would like to do more than take health care away. Since Trump has been in office, 1,000,000 people a year have lost health care. Republicans are not in any way in favor of making sure anyone has access to affordable health care. They simply don't care which is why they have never once been able to come up with a GOP health care plan.

    The only people that ever said the ACA was a smokescreen that was something being given away for nothing was the GOP. You are simply trying to define the other side by your own fallacious criticism without any proof. I never heard one person on the Left saying it was health care for nothing. Plenty of people on the Right said it but that doesn't make it true.

    A sick person entering an ER is not health care, it is triage. Saying that everyone has access to health care because they can go to the ER is insanity. I never understood how anyone could actually believe such a myth but here we are. The ER is the single most expensive alternative you could find. What do you do when you want to have a suspicious lump checked out? Do you go to the ER?
  9. Recusant

    Recusant Member

    If you don't have access to health care you ignore the lump until it metastasizes, then you go to the ER with stage 4 cancer. That's the American Way, and anybody who disagrees is a dirty rotten socialist.

    If you're lucky you might eventually spend some time in a hospice. USA!
  10. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Health care is a human right not simply something that those that see themselves as "hardworking" deserve. So many claim that the US is a Christian country, which it isn't, but you'd think that those that claim it is would be just a little bit more like Christians. It is immoral to think certain people are unworthy of health care or human compassion based on social status. I can't even fathom that lack of compassion that ideal involves but that's just me. Reducing human suffering to a dollars and cents equation is just plain cold.

    *****Climb down off of soapbox*****

    But I genuinely feel that institutionally sanctioned compassion is no compassion I want a part of. Maybe we could invest less in war and more in Americans. A novel idea that the Military industrial Complex will surely reject.
  11. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I found this interesting too.

  12. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    On the positive side....

    Obamacare's Secret Success With little notice, the ACA has racked up a big win
    – near-universal coverage.

    The Democratic campaign has crackled with energy around “Medicare for All,” with one candidate after another jumping into the argument about how best to bring health care to all Americans.

    Lost in all the back-and-forth is that much of this revolution has already happened. Under the Affordable Care Act, several states have already achieved near-universal coverage, and without anywhere near the national disruption that a full system reboot would cause. As of 2018, six states and Washington, D.C. have achieved over 95 percent health care coverage for their resident
    This coverage triumph does not mean that the American health care system does not need reform. But it does demonstrate that the ACA can catalyze near-universal coverage. And by adopting some modest policy reforms, every state, and the country as a whole, can get there, too.

    This has happened despite the fact that the Trump administration has tried to sabotage health care expansion. The administration has cut the insurance exchange open enrollment period by 50 percent, reduced advertising and navigators to help people buy insurance by nearly 90 percent, added requirements to Medicaid to discourage enrollment, and authorized “skinny” insurance options with bare-bones coverage designed to lure healthy enrollees away from comprehensive plans in the ACA insurance pools.

    But the trend is not uniform across the country. Some Republican-controlled states have especially high uninsured rates. Texas has an uninsured rate of 17.7 percent, with a fifth of the nation’s uninsured children. Georgia’s uninsured rate is 13.7 percent, and Florida’s is 13 percent. Together, just these three states account for roughly a third of all uninsured Americans.
    Countering these failing states are Hawaii, Iowa, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Rhode Island, Vermont and D.C., which, using the tools provided in the ACA, have all achieved coverage rates over 95 percent and as high as 98 percent.
    Go Dems!
  13. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    Well, allow me to bloviate for just one second here. I am in my sixties and am living a reasonably comfortable life. However I didn’t have health insurance coverage until I was well into my forties. My kids did. But all I had was invested in trying to build a future. I knew the ramifications and I never felt deprived. Rather, I felt I had a goal to achieve. I didn’t own my first “new” car until I was well into my fifties...... See, in my mind here is the disconnect. It is absolute fact that nothing is free. Somebody, somewhere has to pay for it. Hey, let’s raise minimum wage to twenty bucks an hour. Well, that’s great until your Big Mac costs fifteen bucks. Do we give new Cadillacs and I-Phones with the free education and health care? I mean, where does it end? Have we really sunken to the point that hard working people are now to be scourged like Mr. Trump? Seriously?..... Joe, you cannot give away anything without somebody somewhere paying the cost...... I love examples and analogies so here’s another. In 1977 I paid $18.00 a month for liability insurance on my first heap of a car. I gave my granddaughter a car last year when she graduated and bought her first year of liability insurance. That insurance bill was $2400.00. Do you know why? I am paying for the cost of uninsured motorists. Nothing is free, Joe. Not in America or Utopia.
    SmalltownMN likes this.
  14. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Other than the fact that you are employing the slippery slope logical fallacy, you can't ignore that just about any other country in the western world has universal health care for their citizens and somehow magically manages to pay for it AND has better health outcomes than we do at a smaller price. But, let me define your argument first:

    Slippery Slope

    You said that if we allow A to happen, then Z will eventually happen too, therefore A should not happen.

    The problem with this reasoning is that it avoids engaging with the issue at hand, and instead shifts attention to extreme hypotheticals. Because no proof is presented to show that such extreme hypotheticals will in fact occur, this fallacy has the form of an appeal to emotion fallacy by leveraging fear. In effect the argument at hand is unfairly tainted by unsubstantiated conjecture.

    Now, please explain why universal health care in other countries like say, Canada, is working just fine and Canadians love it. The only thing that makes our health care so expensive is that insurance companies make billions in profits and at the same time deny medical treatments based on formulas without any first-hand knowledge of the patient's condition. Talk about coming between your doctor and you! Our system is broken and costly. It needs to be scraped. And I's go further in saying that the wealthy corporations that pay nothing in taxes need to start contributing more to this country's welfare instead of just using the working people up and dumping them when they get sick or injured.
    Mopar Dude likes this.
  15. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    I cannot explain why the concept does or does not work for other nations. I have absolutely no skin in that game and cannot speak to it...... However as far as our nations health care system I can say there are many, many flaws in the current system. From doctors having to carry huge insurance policies to protect them from litigation to drug companies feeding us questionable and expensive drugs. I had to await a replacement knee for 13 months while my doctor was forced to follow my insurance companies plan for my treatment. I only know that because he apologized to me for the delay. And I do agree, there is a reason that sports complexes carry insurance company branding and every other commercial I see on the television is touting an insurance company. It is as simple as following the money and reforms are in order. I happen to feel the free market is a better corrector than government intrusion. But it is the system we are currently strapped with and it is not free...... You see, promising free anything creates a societal disconnect and the expectation exceeds the ability to deliver. It cannot be sustained. Somebody has to do the providing for the takers.
  16. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    I am lucky when it comes to health care knowledge because I am married to a PhD in Health Policy OO-LA-LA! While I am not an expert in health care policy, some of it has rubbed off on me just through contact over the years.

    I can tell you this. Out of the 33 developed countries, 32 have universal health care. In a single-payer system, the government taxes its citizens to pay for health care. That makes universal health care as free as all branches of the military, the Fire Department, roads, clean drinking water, and the National Parks. In other words, nothing is ever free, you pay for them through taxes.

    In the U.S., we have the only for-profit health care system in the developed world. We also rank 37th in the world for best health care. And ironically, ours is the most expensive health care in the world. The employer-based health care model that this country relied on for decades has crumbled. Slightly over half of employers offer their employees health care coverage at least part of the calendar year. All the rest of the working people have no other option except expensive non-group coverage that in many cases is utterly useless since it doesn't kick in until after $5,000-$10,000 in health care costs. These are hard working people that just have no access to affordable health care options, not people looking for free handouts.

    We will all pay the cost of health care in a universal health care system. The employer will no longer have to pay half anymore. I'd think that you would appreciate that even if it meant paying a little more in taxes.
    Mopar Dude likes this.
  17. Mopar Dude

    Mopar Dude Active Member

    An honest question for you. I would assume that in a universal health care system that medical professionals would then become government employees to some degree. That is only an assumption on my part.... So then assuming that my future doctor is a government employee, would you think that person would be invested enough to excel? I suppose what I am getting at is would there be incentive to cure cancer or infant mortality say?..... I am not intimately educated in the health care field. The doctors of previous generations that pioneered things like open heart surgery or organ replacements. Those were American doctors that had something to gain (financially & professionally) by excelling in their field...... So would a government employed physician be compelled to want to put in the extra effort to advance their field?
  18. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Not so much. The doctors are still employees of the hospital they work at or in their own private practices. The government merely pays for the cost of providing health care. In other words, the government would reimburse the medical facility. Think of Medicare. You have Medicare and you go to the doctor and that doctor treats you and then the doctor is reimbursed for the cost of the care he provided, he isn't a government employee. A VA doctor is a government employee because the VA is a government institution. Universal health care doesn't mean nationalizing all the hospital in the country. Private health insurers will still exist for the wealthy if they choose to buy private insurance. You'd have to be a damn fool to pay that much for it but I suppose some idiots will still go that route.
    Mopar Dude likes this.
  19. SmalltownMN

    SmalltownMN Member

    I have heard that, in countries that have universal health care, a lot of people still buy supplemental insurance because the government run insurance/providers are sub-par. Is that true and, if so, to what extent?

    Seems to me, if it were so perfect and one size fits all, that people would not have to do that.
  20. JoeNation

    JoeNation FOX Lies, GOP buys!

    Every country does it a little bit differently. There are three basic models of universal health care that the 32 developed countries use, excluding the US. They adopt one of the following three models:
    • In a single-payer system, the government taxes its citizens to pay for health care. Twelve of the 32 countries have this system. The United Kingdom is an example of single-payer socialized medicine.
    • Other countries use a combination of government and private service providers. Six countries enforce an insurance mandate. It requires everyone to buy insurance, either through their employer or the government. Germany is the best example of this system.
    • The nine remaining countries use a two-tier approach. The government taxes its citizens to pay for basic government health services. Citizens can also opt for better services with supplemental private insurance. France is the best example.
    Each country picks the system that best serves their people. In this country, we are stuck with the illusion of choice. If we had both a government system and a private system, we'd have an actual choice. It is said that the private providers couldn't compete with the government providers so we get to have no choice. I say, let the people choose if the prefer private of government health insurance. Everybody is happy.

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